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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them?

You are here: Home > Forum > General > General questions, comments, and issues > ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them?

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 15/02/2021 at 16:09 #137254
Afterbrunel
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I find running a large area with ARS rather frustrating. Some ARS rules seem counter-productive; for example I'm running Motherwell old layout; a down train approaching Bellshill calls the route through into Newton station, prematurely blocking the main line from Motherwell and the branch from Hamilton.

Is it possible to inspect the ARS rules, and is it possible to alter them?

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 15/02/2021 at 16:18 #137255
Stephen Fulcher
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They are hard coded into the sim and cannot be changed by the end user.
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 15/02/2021 at 16:37 #137256
Steamer
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Afterbrunel in post 137254 said:
I find running a large area with ARS rather frustrating. Some ARS rules seem counter-productive; for example I'm running Motherwell old layout; a down train approaching Bellshill calls the route through into Newton station, prematurely blocking the main line from Motherwell and the branch from Hamilton.
Which TT and trains are you having a problem with? I've just run a test in 1980s mode, and ARS sets routes for a train from Holytown to Newton in accordance with the standard 'two greens' rule as I'd expect. It doesn't call the route into Newton station until it passes M187.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 15/02/2021 at 17:06 #137258
GeoffM
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There are very few "rules" as such. Only when a specific junction or station where the standard ARS logic has difficulties do developers restrict routesetting in some way (depending on the circumstances). Two greens, as Steamer says, is SOP in the industry.

Use of collars (reminders), just like what real life signallers use, sounds like what you might need.

SimSig Boss
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 10:47 #137274
Afterbrunel
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Well, **for example** I am running Motherwell old layout and the timetable Motherwell 1984 fair.

I'll upload the position I have reached. 2J11 has not yet arrived at Blantyre. It will make a call there, and then at Hamilton West and Hamilton Central, taking about 8 minutes. But ARS has cleared the route to Ross Jn, blocking the single line for clockwise movements. Obviously I *could* have intervened and blocked that; this would mean proactively blocking nearly every local train at nearly every junction, hardly getting the the best out of ARS.

Another example: as I have said, trains approaching Uddingston Junction and about to make a station call at Bellshill get the route set right through to Newton platform 1 inclusive.

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Last edited: 16/02/2021 at 10:48 by Afterbrunel
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 11:03 #137275
Afterbrunel
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Or a few minutes later, where 6D75 has passed Mossend North Junction and will enter Braidhurst UGL and wait there. But the route has been set as far as Motherwell platform 1, blocking the Up Main Line. Of course I could intervene and cancel the route out of Braidhurst Loop. But wouldn't it be better if the ARS decision making rules didn't do this in the first place?
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 11:32 #137276
Ron_J
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Welcome to the real world - that’s what ARS does. An old hand once said to me that ARS should be watched like the most useless trainee signaller you’ve ever had. If you want it to do something specific then you need to intervene.
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 12:40 #137277
bill_gensheet
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Looked at the save, and noted the following:

6D75 is 35 late, so does not wait at Braidhurst, it carries straight on. It does not have a 'wait' or crew change.
There are no conflicting trains in sim, and 6D75 will run to Shieldmuir without delaying any other train. ARS seems to be right.
A signaller might intervene cancel the loop and set right through to help make up time

Assuming your upload is following on, 2J11 is 17 late but clears Haughead Jn in time for 2K11 to proceed right time.
At the save time, 2K11 is waiting for (also late) 2F12, and the delay would be equal to each. The late train gets priority in a close call like this.
You can always just set the route for 2K11 to force the issue given the late running as only you know 2F12 terminates and goes ECS at Motherwell

(Q - how come 1V90 is set to be 56 late entering, did you do that manually as that seems a bit much for 'moderate' delays?)

Bill

Last edited: 16/02/2021 at 12:40 by bill_gensheet
Reason: None given

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 13:08 #137280
Steamer
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I agree with Bill. ARS has chosen to give priority to 2J11 over 2K11 (and the former occupies the single line before the latter reaches M419, confirming that this causes less overall delay), therefore there's nothing wrong with it clearing the signal when it did. Ditto there's nothing else around for 6D75 to conflict with.

I agree that a human would leave it later to clear the signals, but ARS runs the numbers and sets routes as appropriate.

Ditto, your example about Newton is only (potentially) an issue if it actually causes delay to another service.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 16/02/2021 at 13:50 #137284
bill_gensheet
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From the timetable testing, the only ones needing intervention were:

Motherwell P2 at certain times (xx45 ?) to set the warner route as otherwise ARS sets the main route for the 1Cxx train and locks the junction until timeout. When ARS is setting up the route the P4 train has not TRTS so is not calculated for.

Carstairs & Mossend north shunting, may help to collar and prevent early route setting.
I did as much as I could with rules.

Bill

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 09:35 #137413
Afterbrunel
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Two points for Bill Wilson:

1) I have now worked through 24 hours in this sim; thanks for setting up the timetable, which was very entertaining. I think in one or two cases the transition from 0z99d to 0z99e [hypothetically] might be wrong, encouraging the oncoming traction at a change to come on to the train before the offcoming traction is released. But very good and painstaking work anyway, thank you.

2) You say "I did as much as I could with rules." So you can set up the rules then? This contradicts SF (below) who has said "They are hard coded into the sim and cannot be changed by the end user." And if you can set them up, then anyone could modify them for their own use?

Notwithstanding these whinges, I did enjoy running this one. Modern timetables with regular interval passenger services dominant, no locomotive changes, and precious little freight are nothing like as interesting. Theextreme example is Carlisle old (very demanding) and Carlisle recent (so simple you can be reading a book while it is running. Thanks again to BW for the timetable, and to all who responded.

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 09:57 #137414
DriverCurran
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Afterbrunel

I think when Bill refers to "I did as much as I could with rules" he means the timetable rules, like "train A must not enter xx minutes after train B leaves the area" rather than ARS rules.

Paul

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 12:34 #137415
bill_gensheet
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Afterbrunel in post 137413 said:
Two points for Bill Wilson:

1) I have now worked through 24 hours in this sim; thanks for setting up the timetable, which was very entertaining. I think in one or two cases the transition from 0z99d to 0z99e [hypothetically] might be wrong, encouraging the oncoming traction at a change to come on to the train before the offcoming traction is released. But very good and painstaking work anyway, thank you.

2) You say "I did as much as I could with rules." So you can set up the rules then? This contradicts SF (below) who has said "They are hard coded into the sim and cannot be changed by the end user." And if you can set them up, then anyone could modify them for their own use?

Notwithstanding these whinges, I did enjoy running this one. Modern timetables with regular interval passenger services dominant, no locomotive changes, and precious little freight are nothing like as interesting. Theextreme example is Carlisle old (very demanding) and Carlisle recent (so simple you can be reading a book while it is running. Thanks again to BW for the timetable, and to all who responded.
Thanks and glad you liked the timetable.
To confirm what Paul has said, I did mean the timetable rules. So for example trains from Carlisle to split at Carstairs have a rule to prevent the 'Edinburgh portion' loco entering until the train is past Abington.

The '0z99d to 0z99e' do only work properly with trains on time.
Looking at northbound trains, many are timed too tight to hold off the '0Dxx' entry for the train to arrive, and until the new '0E00' is present ARS cannot give priority to it over the 0Dxx movement. Putting the 0E00 in ASAP should help, but a collar on M298 / M317 is the safest approach.

A new rule of xXxx must not depart W until yYyy has passed Z might help, but how many would make use of it ?

To anyone wondering where the 'full service' version of Motherwell 1984 has got to, it is now part of a 3 way chain (CSCOT and EDIN) so is getting a lot more testing and fixes have more implications.

Bill

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 14:47 #137418
jc92
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GeoffM in post 137258 said:
There are very few "rules" as such. Only when a specific junction or station where the standard ARS logic has difficulties do developers restrict routesetting in some way (depending on the circumstances). Two greens, as Steamer says, is SOP in the industry.

Use of collars (reminders), just like what real life signallers use, sounds like what you might need.
Out of interest, why are some of the loops not provided with an ARS rule to wait until booked time? This is evidently a real life issue more than a simsig specific one, but it seems strange ARS wouldn't have that rule applied, which the signaller can effectively override.

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 14:54 #137419
danners430
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jc92 in post 137418 said:
GeoffM in post 137258 said:
There are very few "rules" as such. Only when a specific junction or station where the standard ARS logic has difficulties do developers restrict routesetting in some way (depending on the circumstances). Two greens, as Steamer says, is SOP in the industry.

Use of collars (reminders), just like what real life signallers use, sounds like what you might need.
Out of interest, why are some of the loops not provided with an ARS rule to wait until booked time? This is evidently a real life issue more than a simsig specific one, but it seems strange ARS wouldn't have that rule applied, which the signaller can effectively override.
I find that ARS works fine in loops, because it correctly gives priority to trains which are due to depart the timing point earlier, and therefore the route is only set out of the loop once the train in said loop is the next scheduled departure

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 15:33 #137421
jc92
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danners430 in post 137419 said:
jc92 in post 137418 said:
GeoffM in post 137258 said:
There are very few "rules" as such. Only when a specific junction or station where the standard ARS logic has difficulties do developers restrict routesetting in some way (depending on the circumstances). Two greens, as Steamer says, is SOP in the industry.

Use of collars (reminders), just like what real life signallers use, sounds like what you might need.
Out of interest, why are some of the loops not provided with an ARS rule to wait until booked time? This is evidently a real life issue more than a simsig specific one, but it seems strange ARS wouldn't have that rule applied, which the signaller can effectively override.
I find that ARS works fine in loops, because it correctly gives priority to trains which are due to depart the timing point earlier, and therefore the route is only set out of the loop once the train in said loop is the next scheduled departure
Assuming the following train has entered the simulation?

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 17:40 #137424
Afterbrunel
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Thank you Bill.

Yes, I acknowldge that writing the additional rules ("xXxx must not depart W until yYyy has passed Z might help"would take about 200 years to write, because you would have to write that for all possible permutations of late running.

"A 'full service' version of Motherwell 1984"? Oh goody, can't wait.

Thanks again for a courteous and helpful response.

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 23/02/2021 at 20:28 #137427
GeoffM
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jc92 in post 137418 said:
Out of interest, why are some of the loops not provided with an ARS rule to wait until booked time? This is evidently a real life issue more than a simsig specific one, but it seems strange ARS wouldn't have that rule applied, which the signaller can effectively override.
Because that would be unnecessarily restrictive. If the looped train can make it to the divergence point with the following train without delaying that following train (or the calculated scores allow it), then there's no need to hold it back, local instructions notwithstanding.

SimSig Boss
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 24/02/2021 at 21:55 #137451
Afterbrunel
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But this seems hit and miss. Sometimes the train waits for time and sometimes the same train (in a different run of the sim) doesn't. I realise at some places that is a crew change issue, or even a physical needs break, but not, I think, at Beattock Summit, for example. In real life the signaller could ask the driver, of course.
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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? 25/02/2021 at 03:30 #137454
GeoffM
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Afterbrunel in post 137451 said:
But this seems hit and miss. Sometimes the train waits for time and sometimes the same train (in a different run of the sim) doesn't.
It seems you're talking about the train/driver waiting for time (or not). That's different to ARS setting the route or not.

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ARS rules; who writes them? Can I edit them? Today at 13:17 #137527
Afterbrunel
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Yes, topic drift, sorry.
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