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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 08:46 #137518
Javelin395
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Hi, I've been enjoying Whatlep's series of timetables for Manchester Piccadilly but have come across an issue with getting a second train into an already occupied platform 5 at Oxford Road.

Signal MP458 fails to give the expected call-on indication for the aforementioned move and I end up having to wait for the driver to call up and then talk him past the signal. This issue occurs with two or three trains across a couple of timetables so I suspect it might be a sim issue (possible missing route or Lime Street control problem) rather than a timetable issue.


Attached 08:30 save will illustrate the problem... 1H32 is approaching Castlefield Jn and scheduled to share P5 at Oxford Road with 2H94 which is just entering the platform.

Loader v5.13
Manchester Piccadilly 1996 TT v2.1.0

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 10:00 #137519
jc92
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I can recreate this issue using the provided save (with a 31m and 40m pair of trains) but I can't recreate it on a fresh game using 2 40m debug trains.

As a first thought, was this game continued from a save on an older version of the simulation? Otherwise I'm somewhat stumped. It's also strange noone else has reported this so far.

It's not a missing route as I've been able to get the call on, and it isn't Lime St. control as neither the bay or 458 signal have the relevant measuring circuits.

Last edited: 01/03/2021 at 10:02 by jc92
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 10:53 #137520
Javelin395
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Can't confirm if this game was a continuation using an older version of the sim but the first snapshot (at 04.30 sim time) from this run through was generated on 16.02.2021 so I will have been using the most recently released versions at that point in time.

Hope that helps narrow things down.

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 11:15 #137521
postal
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Javelin395 in post 137520 said:
Can't confirm if this game was a continuation using an older version of the sim but the first snapshot (at 04.30 sim time) from this run through was generated on 16.02.2021 so I will have been using the most recently released versions at that point in time.

Hope that helps narrow things down.
But did you load a previously saved game to get to 04:30? If you did and you can go back to the first save you have from that run, you should get a warning message when you try and load it on the current version of the sim if it was saved on a previous version; this may further assist in tracking things down. Of course, if you have no previous saves this is a blind alley.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 01/03/2021 at 11:16 by postal
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 11:45 #137522
headshot119
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The reason the route isn't clearing is because the train is still occupying "RU" track circuit. In order to clear "RU" track must be clear, and "RT" track must be occupied.

Asking the driver in the attached save to shunt forward toward 458 signal allowed the route to clear.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 11:53 #137523
Javelin395
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Don't think I was very clear...the 04:30 snapshot was the first from that run through because the timetable start time is 04:20.

Nevertheless, good shout Postal to go back and open that snapshot to see if it generates the sim saved on previous version warning. I've just done that and no such warning was generated.


(Headshot had posted whilst I was typing)

Last edited: 01/03/2021 at 11:56 by Javelin395
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 12:22 #137524
jc92
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headshot119 in post 137522 said:
The reason the route isn't clearing is because the train is still occupying "RU" track circuit. In order to clear "RU" track must be clear, and "RT" track must be occupied.

Asking the driver in the attached save to shunt forward toward 458 signal allowed the route to clear.
This raises an interesting chicken and egg situation. 40m isn't an unreasonable length of train to call on (in fact its likely the only thing that gets called on nowadays) but the driver is stopping too far from the signal to ever get the call on aspect, without being forced forwards. Is there anyway to resolve that as otherwise the call on aspect becomes almost unusable without interference.

I'm still perplexed as to how I was able to call on a 40m debug train with no intervention, identical to 1H32 in this timetable.

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 12:27 #137525
Dionysusnu
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Timetable stopping position can force it to stop closer to the signal, right?
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 13:26 #137528
jc92
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Dionysusnu in post 137525 said:
Timetable stopping position can force it to stop closer to the signal, right?
1H32 is booked to pass Oxford Road

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 13:32 #137529
Dionysusnu
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- 2H94 is the train that should stop closer to the signal
- Why would you call-on a passing train?

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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 14:11 #137530
danners430
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Dionysusnu in post 137529 said:
- Why would you call-on a passing train?
I can think of a number of reasons, especially in Manchester - the most obvious being the passing train running early (meaning it would block Piccadilly P13), and an on-time or late train following (which would be further held up at Picc because of the aforementioned passing train blocking the platform)

Last edited: 01/03/2021 at 14:11 by danners430
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 14:21 #137531
Albert
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We are talking about a call-on into a bay platform. I presume jc92 meant it's booked to pass Deansgate and therefore can't be stopped nearer to the signal in question.
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 14:41 #137533
jc92
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2H94 is in the bay. 1H32 is being called on into P5 on top of it (hence why it needs to be called on) and its stopping short of 458 signal, resulting in 458 not releasing as it thinks the train is overlength. As its booked to pass deansgate, you wouldn't be able to alter the stopping position there.
Last edited: 01/03/2021 at 15:00 by jc92
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Oxford Road Platform 5 - permissive working issue 01/03/2021 at 17:01 #137535
GeoffM
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headshot119 in post 137522 said:
The reason the route isn't clearing is because the train is still occupying "RU" track circuit. In order to clear "RU" track must be clear, and "RT" track must be occupied.

Asking the driver in the attached save to shunt forward toward 458 signal allowed the route to clear.
^^This. The train is stopping 20m before the signal (default rules), it's 40m long, and the TC is 57m long. So it overhangs RU by 3m. Shunting forward clears RU, allowing the call-on aspect to be given.

Believe it or not, signallers asking drivers to nudge up to signals is not that uncommon in the real world.

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