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No timetable in a chain

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:27 #137817
ajfoxy
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Afternoon one and all,

Hosting the troublesome VSE last night as part of the chain and i was receiving trains from wimbledon with no timetable. I spoke to wimbledon who had the timetable and confirmed where train wanted to go but i had no headcode in the timetable for it so unable to see anything about where its destination is. Is this because of differing timetables or limitations of the sim?

Thanks,

AF

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:37 #137818
Peter Bennet
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5166 posts
Sounds like there's a timetable mismatch, you can try the chaining tool, if it's got that far.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:37 #137819
andyallen4014
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290 posts
The train would need to be in your timetable (i.e. VSE) for the sim to know what it is and where it is going.
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:38 #137820
JamesN
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It’ll be differing timetables in use, or not-wholly-compatible timetables.
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:47 #137821
elltrain3
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Victoria Central & 3B were on 2015 with all the rest on 2012 so VSE & Wimbledon should have worked. though mis-matched TTs seem to be a problem in this chain!
Resident Mock Maker! / "The Out Of Control Host"
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 17:59 #137822
ajfoxy
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Thanks for comments,

train was in area and when you clicked on it had no info. spoke to wimbledon and fine on theirs. didnt know if it was a case of me not having the correct timetable

AF

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:02 #137823
andyallen4014
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ajfoxy in post 137822 said:
Thanks for comments,

train was in area and when you clicked on it had no info. spoke to wimbledon and fine on theirs. didnt know if it was a case of me not having the correct timetable

AF
Yes definitely sounds like it. The train needs to be in the timetable on both sims which is why chaining only works when compatible timetables are in use, the train won't carry its timetable from one sim into another as the previous sim doesn't contain the locations for the next one etc

Last edited: 14/03/2021 at 18:03 by andyallen4014
Reason: Added info

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:05 #137825
ajfoxy
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is there any way round this or would it be to manually add missing trains into the timetable?

AF

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:05 #137826
Peter Bennet
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elltrain3 in post 137821 said:
Victoria Central & 3B were on 2015 with all the rest on 2012 so VSE & Wimbledon should have worked. though mis-matched TTs seem to be a problem in this chain!
Why? 2015 and 2012 are 3 years apart and the timetables are likely to be different as seems to have been proven.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:06 #137827
Peter Bennet
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ajfoxy in post 137825 said:
is there any way round this or would it be to manually add missing trains into the timetable?

AF

It'll never work properly unless the timetables match.
In most cases that will require the author(s) to ensure they do.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 14/03/2021 at 18:10 by Peter Bennet
Reason: None given

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:18 #137829
andyallen4014
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This is the risk of trying to make bigger and bigger chains, it just opens the door to bigger and bigger problems.
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 18:59 #137830
Stephen Fulcher
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I don’t think there is a problem here, certainly not with any sim.

As JamesN and Peter have both stated, chaining will only work properly with compatible timetables. Think of it this way, if you were to try and run VicSE in 2021 but Wimbledon was still in the days of steam it clearly wouldn’t work, even a few days apart can have large differences.

I’d recommend keeping with the bundled timetables such as 2015 or 2009 for chaining games as these will have all been tested chained prior to release.

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 19:35 #137832
TimTamToe
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As the author of the 2012 tt's, guidance was given to the chain host prior to the first host which tt's should be able to chain together and which may have issues and what eras to use.

I was not aware that 2012 tt's would be attempted to chain with 2015 tt's, which obviously wouldn't work especially as they are written by different authors and using different methods. Even if the same team were behind them, they still wouldn't chain together well.

2012; Vic Cent, Vic SE, 3B, Oxted should all chain if the sims allow it, or have minor issues. LB should be fine, but hasn't been fully checked due to awaiting sim fixes to rectify routes that had been removed in a previous sim update.

With the exception of 3B all of the above had previously been checked with Jamie's chaining tool prior to their release, on the sim and loader version available at the time of release.

Wimbledon and Feltham tt's would chain together but extremely unlikely to chain further due to them being written on older sim versions and on a far older loader version than the other above were written on with differences in IDs likely along with core improvements like decisions and multi seeds missing.

Once Jamie has travelled south with the new version of his chaining tool, I'll retest and update appropriately when I have the time. Wimbledon and Feltham updates are not high on the list due them requiring more attention and time, which I don't have a lot of right now.

They are on the to do list, I will get round to them and as with everything SimSig, they'll be ready when they're ready

Gareth

Last edited: 14/03/2021 at 19:40 by TimTamToe
Reason: None given

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 19:36 #137833
Dionysusnu
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Peter Bennet in post 137826 said:
elltrain3 in post 137821 said:
Victoria Central & 3B were on 2015 with all the rest on 2012 so VSE & Wimbledon should have worked. though mis-matched TTs seem to be a problem in this chain!
Why? 2015 and 2012 are 3 years apart and the timetables are likely to be different as seems to have been proven.

Peter

You didn't get the gist of the message. Only VC and 3B sims had different timetables from the rest. Wimbledon and VSE both ran on 2012 TTs, which would normally match.

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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 20:13 #137835
Meld
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As Gareth explained about any potential issues above, its simple if you chain timetables from different years your going to have problems period. The same would almost certainly apply if you used the same years TT but start it in the wrong era.

This chain is wrecked as such, the only way out is to drop the sims that were running the 2015 TT, all down to user error.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 20:45 #137838
jc92
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Dionysusnu in post 137833 said:
Peter Bennet in post 137826 said:
elltrain3 in post 137821 said:
Victoria Central & 3B were on 2015 with all the rest on 2012 so VSE & Wimbledon should have worked. though mis-matched TTs seem to be a problem in this chain!
Why? 2015 and 2012 are 3 years apart and the timetables are likely to be different as seems to have been proven.

Peter

You didn't get the gist of the message. Only VC and 3B sims had different timetables from the rest. Wimbledon and VSE both ran on 2012 TTs, which would normally match.
The gist of the message is two different years timetables were used on sims which directly chained to each other. Peters statement is spot on. This was a bad idea from the start.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 21:02 #137839
Hap
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It's really quite simple.

All the information is here https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:ssrun:multiplayer:chaining

HAP
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No timetable in a chain 14/03/2021 at 22:57 #137840
bill_gensheet
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jc92 in post 137838 said:
Dionysusnu in post 137833 said:
Peter Bennet in post 137826 said:
elltrain3 in post 137821 said:
Victoria Central & 3B were on 2015 with all the rest on 2012 so VSE & Wimbledon should have worked. though mis-matched TTs seem to be a problem in this chain!
Why? 2015 and 2012 are 3 years apart and the timetables are likely to be different as seems to have been proven.

Peter

You didn't get the gist of the message. Only VC and 3B sims had different timetables from the rest. Wimbledon and VSE both ran on 2012 TTs, which would normally match.
The gist of the message is two different years timetables were used on sims which directly chained to each other. Peters statement is spot on. This was a bad idea from the start.
The VSE-Wimbledon 'issue' was not that different years are in use, but as the TT author has pointed out, that timetables of the same year (2012) are so different that they will not chain.

There is a range of stuff a user does not see but that keeps the timetable functioning. Things like how the author has dealt with repeating TD's, days of the week variation and so on, especially in ARS sims. These have all moved on a lot with both UID and 'Decisions' changing the best way to achieve what the author wants. Staying with the older approach just for an unlikely chaining is not going to happen.

Bottom line is that unless the author states a chaining compatibility, there is not going to be one.

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No timetable in a chain 15/03/2021 at 11:52 #137841
andyallen4014
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Agreed, and it's a shame for those of us that invest a lot of time putting timetables together and making sure they work for what they are intended (which is often standalone operation) for it to appear that they don't work because they're being chained with incompatible timetables.
I'm currently working on a set radiating from Sheffield which hopefully *will* chain, but will be tested as such and if they are compatible I will state this when they're released.

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No timetable in a chain 15/03/2021 at 12:35 #137844
Meld
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andyallen4014 in post 137841 said:
Agreed, and it's a shame for those of us that invest a lot of time putting timetables together and making sure they work for what they are intended (which is often standalone operation) for it to appear that they don't work because they're being chained with incompatible timetables.
I'm currently working on a set radiating from Sheffield which hopefully *will* chain, but will be tested as such and if they are compatible I will state this when they're released.
Andy, I know at times it seems a thankless task, but the benefits of a complete working set and pleasure they bring, make it all worth the effort.

Even the older 2009 set has become dated a little by the changes and improvements to the way the loader and sims have progressed. I must admit that the Welsh set for 2015, particularly for Karls early released sims, do need a refresh to match todays standards. (No timescale at the moment on that one)

Last Years Yorkshire Mega chain wouldnt have taken place if it wasn't for MarkC for the hours he spent making sure we had a playable set of TTs, as well as the testers for laying other projects aside, for you guys to enjoy the session.

TT's dont just fall out of the skies they are a lot of work, for example, over the last couple of weeks I've created 3 new TTs for a sim in development, as well as refreshed 3 older timetables for chaining to said sim (3 more to go on that one) so hopefully when that sim gets released you will have chainable TTs on the day of release.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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