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summer 2020 tt

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summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 13:48 #137935
rodney30
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158 posts
I have just noticed a couple of issues.

1P51 enters at 19:11 from Sandy on the up slow. Train description says it is a 12 car 365 but is is only 160m. On arrival at Kings Cross P7 it splits in to 1P60 20:12 KGS to PBR and rear part of it joins 1P53. However after the split the TT via F2 says 1P60 is 160m and the rear part of the join for 1P53 is 8m.

1P53 enters at 20:11 from Sandy on the Up Slow. Its description says it is a 4 car 365 but the F2 says it is an 8 car 365 160m. TT says it joins the part of 1P51 that is left behind. Its new TD is 1P64 20:12 KGS to PBR. That train description says it is a 8 car 365 160m. After the join it becomes 168m. Should this be 240m.

Sorry i dont have a save game.

many thanks

Rodney30

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summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 15:16 #137940
DavidSplett
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142 posts
rodney30 in post 137935 said:
I have just noticed a couple of issues.

1P51 enters at 19:11 from Sandy on the up slow. Train description says it is a 12 car 365 but is is only 160m. On arrival at Kings Cross P7 it splits in to 1P60 20:12 KGS to PBR and rear part of it joins 1P53. However after the split the TT via F2 says 1P60 is 160m and the rear part of the join for 1P53 is 8m.

1P53 enters at 20:11 from Sandy on the Up Slow. Its description says it is a 4 car 365 but the F2 says it is an 8 car 365 160m. TT says it joins the part of 1P51 that is left behind. Its new TD is 1P64 20:12 KGS to PBR. That train description says it is a 8 car 365 160m. After the join it becomes 168m. Should this be 240m.

Sorry i dont have a save game.

many thanks

Rodney30
There is something odd which seems to happen, in that 4-car and 12-car car 365s seem to keep reverting to 8-car whenever any change is made in the timetable editor. No idea whether this is a sim issue or what causes it.

Fix is to change the lengths to match what is in the description and then re-save the TT.

1P51 should indeed be a 12-car and 1P53 a 4-car, then they split/join to make 8-cars going north.

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The following user said thank you: rodney30
summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 16:50 #137943
clive
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2736 posts
DavidSplett in post 137940 said:

There is something odd which seems to happen, in that 4-car and 12-car car 365s seem to keep reverting to 8-car whenever any change is made in the timetable editor. No idea whether this is a sim issue or what causes it.
It won't be a sim issue, it's to do with the way the timetable editor works. Probably it's picking up the 8-car values from the train type and you're not expecting it to. I'm not familiar enough with that bit of the core code to comment further.

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summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 20:38 #137952
GeoffM
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6274 posts
DavidSplett in post 137940 said:
There is something odd which seems to happen, in that 4-car and 12-car car 365s seem to keep reverting to 8-car whenever any change is made in the timetable editor.
What exactly are you changing?

SimSig Boss
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summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 21:50 #137954
Meld
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1098 posts
The TrainCategory ID have to be unique


-<TrainCategory ID="EMU 365 (100mph)">

<Description>EMU 365 (100mph) x 1</Description>

<AccelBrakeIndex>3</AccelBrakeIndex>

<IsFreight>0</IsFreight>

<CanUseGoodsLines>0</CanUseGoodsLines>

<MaxSpeed>100</MaxSpeed>

<TrainLength>80</TrainLength>

<SpeedClass>0</SpeedClass>

<PowerToWeightCategory>0</PowerToWeightCategory>


-<DwellTimes>

<StationReverse>240</StationReverse>

<TerminateReverse>240</TerminateReverse>

</DwellTimes>

<Electrification>O</Electrification>

<CautionSpeedSet>D48CC6B1</CautionSpeedSet>

</TrainCategory>


-<TrainCategory ID="EMU 365 (100mph)">

<Description>EMU 365 (100mph) x 3</Description>

<AccelBrakeIndex>3</AccelBrakeIndex>

<IsFreight>0</IsFreight>

<CanUseGoodsLines>0</CanUseGoodsLines>

<MaxSpeed>100</MaxSpeed>

<TrainLength>240</TrainLength>

<SpeedClass>0</SpeedClass>

<PowerToWeightCategory>0</PowerToWeightCategory>


-<DwellTimes>

<StationReverse>300</StationReverse>

<TerminateReverse>300</TerminateReverse>

</DwellTimes>

<Electrification>O</Electrification>

<CautionSpeedSet>D48CC6B1</CautionSpeedSet>

</TrainCategory>

You have at least 2 train types with the identical IDs hence the problem with editing the stocktypes

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
Last edited: 18/03/2021 at 21:50 by Meld
Reason: None given

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summer 2020 tt 18/03/2021 at 23:00 #137955
DavidSplett
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142 posts
Meld in post 137954 said:
The TrainCategory ID have to be unique


-<TrainCategory ID="EMU 365 (100mph)">

<Description>EMU 365 (100mph) x 1</Description>

<AccelBrakeIndex>3</AccelBrakeIndex>

<IsFreight>0</IsFreight>

<CanUseGoodsLines>0</CanUseGoodsLines>

<MaxSpeed>100</MaxSpeed>

<TrainLength>80</TrainLength>

<SpeedClass>0</SpeedClass>

<PowerToWeightCategory>0</PowerToWeightCategory>


-<DwellTimes>

<StationReverse>240</StationReverse>

<TerminateReverse>240</TerminateReverse>

</DwellTimes>

<Electrification>O</Electrification>

<CautionSpeedSet>D48CC6B1</CautionSpeedSet>

</TrainCategory>


-<TrainCategory ID="EMU 365 (100mph)">

<Description>EMU 365 (100mph) x 3</Description>

<AccelBrakeIndex>3</AccelBrakeIndex>

<IsFreight>0</IsFreight>

<CanUseGoodsLines>0</CanUseGoodsLines>

<MaxSpeed>100</MaxSpeed>

<TrainLength>240</TrainLength>

<SpeedClass>0</SpeedClass>

<PowerToWeightCategory>0</PowerToWeightCategory>


-<DwellTimes>

<StationReverse>300</StationReverse>

<TerminateReverse>300</TerminateReverse>

</DwellTimes>

<Electrification>O</Electrification>

<CautionSpeedSet>D48CC6B1</CautionSpeedSet>

</TrainCategory>

You have at least 2 train types with the identical IDs hence the problem with editing the stocktypes
That certainly explains it. Will do some overhauling of the train types, so hopefully that will cure it. Many thanks for the pointer.

Last edited: 18/03/2021 at 23:01 by DavidSplett
Reason: None given

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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 00:16 #137960
DavidSplett
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142 posts
GeoffM in post 137952 said:
DavidSplett in post 137940 said:
There is something odd which seems to happen, in that 4-car and 12-car car 365s seem to keep reverting to 8-car whenever any change is made in the timetable editor.
What exactly are you changing?
Hi Geoff,

Apologies missed your msg; the reversion seems to happen if any detail within the train type is altered - it occurred for me when I amended the defensive driving policy, all the 365s in the entire TT reverted to 365x2 with the lengths at 160m. I then went through and put them back as 365 x1 or 365 x3, saved the TT, and it has worked fine since.

It seems Meld may have found the problem, though I haven’t had a chance to play with it yet. ISTR the train types in the TT concerned are actually borrowed from a much older timetable someone else did for KX, so it’s a long-standing issue which has cropped up occasionally over time, but never more than a minor irritant so I didn’t bother looking into it further!

Last edited: 19/03/2021 at 00:22 by DavidSplett
Reason: None given

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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 06:49 #137962
Meld
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1098 posts
David, unfortunately the only way to fix the 365s would be to unzip a copy of the timetable xml from the WTT to use as reference for stocktypes that are not unique. Open the TT in f4 in sim delete the offending ones from the Stock types, re-create then and re-assign to services.

Older TT's, especially are a bad place to start getting stock type information from, as they may not be compatible with todays xml format. They can be used as reference material, but must be recreated from scratch, however once you have done this to the current format they are reuseable

I noticed 313's may also had an identical issue

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 09:34 #137965
postal
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5189 posts
Meld in post 137962 said:
David, unfortunately the only way to fix the 365s would be to unzip a copy of the timetable xml from the WTT to use as reference for stocktypes that are not unique. Open the TT in f4 in sim delete the offending ones from the Stock types, re-create then and re-assign to services.

Older TT's, especially are a bad place to start getting stock type information from, as they may not be compatible with todays xml format. They can be used as reference material, but must be recreated from scratch, however once you have done this to the current format they are reuseable

I noticed 313's may also had an identical issue
Just to build on the point made by John (Meld), if you edit the stock types as a stand-alone piece of work it will probably have unintended consequences. This is because each stock type lists the train to which it applies so if you have stock types with the same title there may be a random relation between stock type and individual trains. If you don't want to go into the complexities of unzipping the TT file, editing the xml file then recreating the wtt file you can do it just through the F4 TT editor. You would have to delete all but one of the types with the identical titles, then create new train types for the other consists you need. After that use the "Referenced by" button to find the TDs to which the undeleted consist was applied and check that it was being used appropriately editing any of the listed trains if the wrong consist is being applied. Finally use the TT analyser on the Tools 1 tab to report the trains with custom train types which will list the trains which do not have a train type selected from the list and edit those trains to have the correct consist.

Bit of a faff which ever way you want to go on.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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The following user said thank you: Meld
summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 10:25 #137966
DavidSplett
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142 posts
postal in post 137965 said:
Meld in post 137962 said:
David, unfortunately the only way to fix the 365s would be to unzip a copy of the timetable xml from the WTT to use as reference for stocktypes that are not unique. Open the TT in f4 in sim delete the offending ones from the Stock types, re-create then and re-assign to services.

Older TT's, especially are a bad place to start getting stock type information from, as they may not be compatible with todays xml format. They can be used as reference material, but must be recreated from scratch, however once you have done this to the current format they are reuseable

I noticed 313's may also had an identical issue
Just to build on the point made by John (Meld), if you edit the stock types as a stand-alone piece of work it will probably have unintended consequences. This is because each stock type lists the train to which it applies so if you have stock types with the same title there may be a random relation between stock type and individual trains. If you don't want to go into the complexities of unzipping the TT file, editing the xml file then recreating the wtt file you can do it just through the F4 TT editor. You would have to delete all but one of the types with the identical titles, then create new train types for the other consists you need. After that use the "Referenced by" button to find the TDs to which the undeleted consist was applied and check that it was being used appropriately editing any of the listed trains if the wrong consist is being applied. Finally use the TT analyser on the Tools 1 tab to report the trains with custom train types which will list the trains which do not have a train type selected from the list and edit those trains to have the correct consist.

Bit of a faff which ever way you want to go on.
Thanks both for the replies. Fortunately there are aren’t a massive number of 365 workings in the post-2018 timetables, so it shouldn’t be too much of a headache.

I will have a go with a fresh save in case it messes anything up!

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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 11:24 #137967
clive
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2736 posts
postal in post 137965 said:

You would have to delete all but one of the types with the identical titles, then create new train types for the other consists you need. After that use the "Referenced by" button to find the TDs to which the undeleted consist was applied and check that it was being used appropriately editing any of the listed trains if the wrong consist is being applied.
Actually, I would do it slightly differently. Don't delete any of the old types to start with. Instead, create a set of new types that all have different names. Then work through the "referenced by" lists to assign each train to the correct new type. Only once none of the old ones show as referenced by anything can you delete them, after running the analyser of course.

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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 11:41 #137968
postal
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5189 posts
clive in post 137967 said:
postal in post 137965 said:

You would have to delete all but one of the types with the identical titles, then create new train types for the other consists you need. After that use the "Referenced by" button to find the TDs to which the undeleted consist was applied and check that it was being used appropriately editing any of the listed trains if the wrong consist is being applied.
Actually, I would do it slightly differently. Don't delete any of the old types to start with. Instead, create a set of new types that all have different names. Then work through the "referenced by" lists to assign each train to the correct new type. Only once none of the old ones show as referenced by anything can you delete them, after running the analyser of course.
As ever lots of different ways. "You would have to" should really be "You could" so thanks to Clive for the alternative idea.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 15:49 #137973
GeoffM
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6274 posts
What would have happened as it loaded the TT is that any train referencing a train category would have found the first instance of that category with that ID. Therefore, the other instance(s) should be unused. Delete that category (in F4), recreate it which will give it a unique ID, then re-assign the trains that have the wrong category to the new, correct category.

I've also raised a new Mantis ticket, 33346, to at least spot and report this type of issue. Before XML timetable files, this was a near impossible situation to get in to so no such check was required. Now people can hand edit XMLs, this situation needs to be checked and reported.

SimSig Boss
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summer 2020 tt 19/03/2021 at 18:16 #137978
DavidSplett
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142 posts
GeoffM in post 137973 said:
What would have happened as it loaded the TT is that any train referencing a train category would have found the first instance of that category with that ID. Therefore, the other instance(s) should be unused. Delete that category (in F4), recreate it which will give it a unique ID, then re-assign the trains that have the wrong category to the new, correct category.

I've also raised a new Mantis ticket, 33346, to at least spot and report this type of issue. Before XML timetable files, this was a near impossible situation to get in to so no such check was required. Now people can hand edit XMLs, this situation needs to be checked and reported.
I’ve had a play this afternoon, re-editing and re-assigning as people have suggested, and it *seems* to have worked.

I think the genesis of it is that these timetables all have their roots in a very old one, which has simply been re-hashed each time. Thankfully it only seems to this far have affected the 365s (as this is the only stock type to have been present the whole time), which has meant it hasn’t been a massive job to sort.

I suspect it will, as Meld suggested, also affect the 313s, though I haven’t yet got back as far as a timetable with 313s in it.

Thanks to all for the pointers of how to fix this.

Last edited: 19/03/2021 at 18:17 by DavidSplett
Reason: None given

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