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| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 15:38 #138271 | |
bugsy
1695 posts |
Just a quick question regarding routing freight trains early. For some reason, I think that I may have asked this or a similar question before but can’t find anything on the Forum. Apologies if I have. Anyway, here goes. A timetable might have a departure time, from a loop say, which could be quite a while after a train’s arrival. I invariably send it on its way early, providing I won’t delay something else. Is this done in real life and if it is, why have a particular departure time anyway, except for obvious reasons, e.g. a crew change. And not that I worry too much about my score now, but does this have an effect? In the Carlisle sim, you quite often get a phone call from an adjacent area offering a train early. But there’s no necessity to offer an early train to any of the fringes and I sometimes wonder if this would annoy the signallers there because they have to deal with the consequences, of which I wouldn’t necessarily be aware. Just a thought 😊 Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 15:46 #138272 | |
NicholasN
40 posts |
Yes, in real life it is quite common for Empty Coaching Stock as well as various Freight moves to be allowed an early run, but generally this will only be done if the controlling signaller is a) fairly sure it won't cause delay to passenger services and b) has liaised with the next signaller to ensure that doing so won't cause a problem further along the line, where they may be an inability to loop trains of certain lengths, lack of capacity, bottlenecks, etc. As a driver, if booked to relieve an incoming driver of an empty stock, I will usually advise the signaller that I am in place and ready (especially when at the location considerably early) as this does quite often enable them to route or accept the train early, knowing that it won't be stuck occupying a platform waiting for traincrew. I may of course then get put straight into a loop shortly after, waiting time, but that itself is usually because of capacity constraints further along. The reason a departure time is given for all movements is that everything has an allocated path in which, in theory, it should run and by doing so would virtually guarantee not to conflict with or cause delay to other services. Deviating in time from the booked path loses that guarantee and so it's a decision not always taken lightly. EDITED TO ADD: The other important reason for timing is where a yard or freight siding may only be able to accept a train after another has departed, or unloaded, or loaded, or whatever, so two freights turning up at once because one is early could, at some locations, cause havoc. Last edited: 01/04/2021 at 15:48 by NicholasN Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bugsy |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 16:00 #138273 | |
jc92
3629 posts |
this is very much an era thing. Historically trains often ran early if the signalman could/thought he could get them an early path, potentially looping them further if needed. on Carlisle 1979 for instance, I regularly run freight very early, then monitor it, looping it away from Cl.1s as required. I await Mr Barbers post with glee on this subject. Nowadays, because of the privatised nature of the railway and delay allocation costing money, trains are normally run to their booked path, to avoid delay being attributed to the signaller if it delays a service it was booked to follow. for instance, running a freight an hour early ahead of 3 passenger trains, and it then fails in section could result in the delays for those three passenger trains being charged to NR rather than the FOC. If a train wants to run early, but is the next train due that way anyway, it would likely be run early as the above penalty wouldn't apply. I'm sure some of the professionals will expand on this in due course. edit: For Carlisle the main two fringes to be concerned about are Corby gates and Howe & Co, as both lines have very little in the way of loops or refuges to hide slow running freight if you put one out in front of a passenger service. Simsig won't penalise you once the trains drop off sim, but if you're wanting to add some realism, its one to consider. I often delay freights at Petteril Bridge beyond their booked time to allow diverted Cl.1s with clashing schedules to run ahead of them if I can see a clear off sim issue for instance. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 01/04/2021 at 16:03 by jc92 Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: bugsy |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 17:19 #138274 | |
Dionysusnu
575 posts |
For reference, the first loop on the S&C (Howe & Co fringe) is all the way at Blea Moor, more than 75% of the distance to Settle and Hellifield. https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Forum/ThreadView/52936?postId=137791 Although it does appear like Howe & Co itself contains a bidirectional loop, it seems to be out of use, as seen here in Sattelite view 54°51'27.3"N 2°50'14.9"W Last edited: 01/04/2021 at 17:26 by Dionysusnu Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 17:32 #138275 | |
DonRiver
151 posts |
If you want to phone the next signaller to ask if they're happy for you to send the next train early… play multiplayer on a big chain 
(named for the one in Tasmania, not in Russia) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 17:54 #138276 | |
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jc92
3629 posts |
Dionysusnu in post 138274 said:For reference, the first loop on the S&C (Howe & Co fringe) is all the way at Blea Moor, more than 75% of the distance to Settle and Hellifield.In 1979/80 there was a bit more choice. Howe & Co could still recess short enough trains (the S&C tripper serviced the sidings there too!) then Long Meg Sdgs, when open (17 miles from Carlisle) could also do so. Appleby North (30 miles from Carlisle) would be the next point. Ais Gill had a URS and DRS, however I'm almost certain it was normally switched out by that time. 17 miles doesn't sound like a lot until you're on a Class 8 walking along at 35mph. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Log in to reply The following user said thank you: Dionysusnu |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 18:24 #138278 | |
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Late Turn
696 posts |
bugsy in post 138271 said:But there’s no necessity to offer an early train to any of the fringes and I sometimes wonder if this would annoy the signallers there because they have to deal with the consequences, of which I wouldn’t necessarily be aware. That's the key to it, in my experience. I much preferred to keep freight (and ECS) moving if possible, but I had to be sure that (a) it had a suitable margin to reach the next regulating point and (b) that it could be dealt with at the next suitable regulating point, held to time there if it wasn't possible to keep it going. (a) was my decision, but (b) meant a phone call to the signalman on the receiving end to confirm. Obviously it'd cause some consternation if I ran a freight early with an adequate margin to get it to the next loop, only to find that the next loop was either already occupied or was needed for something else subsequently. Officially, by this time, it was meant to go through Control, but we didn't always do that in reality. If a train was running early (within reason) but was the next train in that direction anyway, then there's no need to ask any questions, just pull off - that's something that Simsig doesn't really get right IMO with 'early running' phone calls. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: jc92 |
| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 19:39 #138279 | |
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TUT
507 posts |
One thing you might not have considered is Network Rail's desire to be a good neighbour. Trains are not supposed to be held for too long in the Goods Loop at Aylesbury as there is a lot of housing nearby and Network Rail get complaints from neighbours if trains are sat in there too long with their diesel engines creating noise and exhaust emissions. Plus, perhaps, the smell from bin trains, not sure how bad it is for the residents, but you can taste it on the air as the train goes by.
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| Sending trains early 01/04/2021 at 22:33 #138288 | |
Steamer
3921 posts |
jc92 in post 138276 said:Dionysusnu in post 138274 said:The comment on Ais Gill got me thinking- when did the practice of setting back into a refuge siding to let traffic pass die out?For reference, the first loop on the S&C (Howe & Co fringe) is all the way at Blea Moor, more than 75% of the distance to Settle and Hellifield.In 1979/80 there was a bit more choice. Howe & Co could still recess short enough trains (the S&C tripper serviced the sidings there too!) then Long Meg Sdgs, when open (17 miles from Carlisle) could also do so. Appleby North (30 miles from Carlisle) would be the next point. Ais Gill had a URS and DRS, however I'm almost certain it was normally switched out by that time. 17 miles doesn't sound like a lot until you're on a Class 8 walking along at 35mph. "Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q) Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 02/04/2021 at 08:24 #138290 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
jc92 in post 138273 said:this is very much an era thing. Thank you Joe; nice to have a reputation!?? Not only an era thing, but also an area thing. Back in the day, Control was a much bigger player. (It's worth adding that their districts were rather smaller than they are now. By the end of the 1970s, the LMR London Division control offices had all been consolidated at Euston, but there remained separate desks for Midland, LNW, GC and North London lines. GC and NL were self-contained, albeit observing the regional boundaries (hence not responsible for Gunnersbury & Richmond, nor for anything east of Upper Holloway). Midland responsibility ended at Sharnbrook and I think LNW took in Bletchley PSB but not Rugby. Once West Hampstead PSB was fully commissioned, there was no longer any need for train control as the PSB supervisor did that for pretty much the same area, which meant that once Leicester PSB was commissioned the MR only needed one Control; as, by that time, 'two-tier' had done away with the old divisions that would have been the end of their presence at Euston. But if you step further back, I'm fairly certain the MR had control offices for the London end (either St Pancras or Cricklewood, or possibly even both), Bedford, Wellingborough, Leicester, Trent/Notts, Derby, possibly more as well - the huge coal traffic and prevalence of small boxes at short intervals required that sort of resource.) Different companies (and their successor lines) had different attitudes to the role of Control. The concept originated on the Midland and they required Control to take all significant regulating decisions; you could scarcely blow your nose without Control's say-so down that way! In later years, regulators were appointed at St Pancras and Bedford, who took over the job of train regulation from Control but with similar authority. (Of course it was up to the regulators themselves how they did their job, and the Regulator at St Pancras was in the habit - quite explicitly - of letting Finchley Road make his own regulating decision on up trains in the peaks. The Finchley signalmen knew the constraints at St Pancras (a wrong decision could box up the station rather effectively), but the job was so busy - even with a train recorder to deal with the phones - that attempting detailed regulation would end up causing more problems than it would ever solve.) The Great Eastern, likewise, gave Control complete authority over all regulating decisions. Adrian Vaughan's books make it clear that on the GW, regulating was the signalman's job. It was similar on the Great Northern; I saw a document relating to the opening of a control office at Knebworth in the 1950s, which explicitly said that although Control would offer advice and guidance when asked it was the signalman's responsibility to actually take regulating decisions. Which led to a story I heard, involving the same D--- T--- I mentioned as a 'courageous' regulator a little while back. Apparently D was brave enough to come unstuck occasionally. And one day he made a serious mess, resulting in an express getting badly hammered. As was usual on those occasions, an inspector was duly despatched to go and have a word with the miscreant. So, one late turn a few days later, there was a crunch of boots on the stairs and the DI entered the box. (The subsequent dialogue makes me wonder if it might have been my father, but the DI was never named.) "I suppose you know why I'm here don't you, D---?" was the DI's opening sally. "Yes, guv, I suppose I do." The tone was rueful, to say the least. "That's OK then. Is the kettle on?" Last edited: 02/04/2021 at 08:25 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: jc92, TUT, postal, JWNoctis |
| Sending trains early 02/04/2021 at 13:00 #138292 | |
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bugsy
1695 posts |
DonRiver in post 138275 said:If you want to phone the next signaller to ask if they're happy for you to send the next train early… play multiplayer on a big chain ;)I couldn't possibly do that. I'd make too many mistakes, make a fool of myself and annoy too many people. I think that I'll stick to playing solo, its safer 
Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 02/04/2021 at 15:31 #138296 | |
welshdave257
42 posts |
bugsy in post 138292 said:DonRiver in post 138275 said:That usually holds me back from joining a multiplayer session. I was tempted to join some of the Welsh sim sessions that ran during Christmas but I always think I'm going to screw something up to the point where it messes things up for everyone else. So, I tend to stick to solo too, but I spice things up by chaining two sims and trying to cope on my own lol.If you want to phone the next signaller to ask if they're happy for you to send the next train early… play multiplayer on a big chain ;)I couldn't possibly do that. I'd make too many mistakes, make a fool of myself and annoy too many people. I probably will take the plunge at some point, and I know others are keen to help during sessions. Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 02/04/2021 at 17:38 #138301 | |
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DonRiver
151 posts |
oh, it's worth diving in, with friendly players who'll give a helpful nudge if you've forgotten something...
(named for the one in Tasmania, not in Russia) Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 02/04/2021 at 23:00 #138302 | |
Soton_Speed
282 posts |
Steamer in post 138288 said:The comment on Ais Gill got me thinking- when did the practice of setting back into a refuge siding to let traffic pass die out?Presumably it went with the phasing out of freight guards? In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 03/04/2021 at 20:33 #138341 | |
Guts
586 posts |
welshdave257 in post 138296 said:bugsy in post 138292 said:Sidebar, don't feel discouraged from joining Multiplays, most of the Hosts are decent guys and gals who will happily give pointers and many of the joiners are always happy to help out too.DonRiver in post 138275 said:That usually holds me back from joining a multiplayer session. I was tempted to join some of the Welsh sim sessions that ran during Christmas but I always think I'm going to screw something up to the point where it messes things up for everyone else. So, I tend to stick to solo too, but I spice things up by chaining two sims and trying to cope on my own lol.If you want to phone the next signaller to ask if they're happy for you to send the next train early… play multiplayer on a big chain ;)I couldn't possibly do that. I'd make too many mistakes, make a fool of myself and annoy too many people. Join multiplays guys, they're loads of fun. Last edited: 03/04/2021 at 20:34 by Guts Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Sending trains early 03/04/2021 at 20:56 #138345 | |
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Ron_J
329 posts |
Soton_Speed in post 138302 said:Steamer in post 138288 said:There was a booked move setting back into Laurencekirk Up Refuge Siding as late as 2014/2015. A shunter travelled with the train to facilitate the propelling move.The comment on Ais Gill got me thinking- when did the practice of setting back into a refuge siding to let traffic pass die out?Presumably it went with the phasing out of freight guards? Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Steamer, Soton_Speed |