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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 13:20 #138587
Trainmad091
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Hi All,

While timetable writing with choices and decisions (different trains running depending on the day of the week the sim picks) , I am trying to get the timetables to be chain compatible (York and Tyneside). How would this work?
In my head - I load York, it picks 'Wednesday' , I load tyneside ready to connect it to York but it loads 'Sunday' and all the Sunday seed trains are in Tyneside sim?

Thanks
Kyle

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 13:58 #138588
jc92
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The only way to do that I can think of is to ensure both sims pick the same day decision either by the user deleting the other 6 days leaving only one day, or the author doing this and providing 7 copies of the timetable, a bit like Carlisle 79 provides a general random timetable and 5 specific days. They're all the same timetable,but the decisions are set specifically in each copy.
Last edited: 14/04/2021 at 13:59 by jc92
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 14:25 #138589
andyallen4014
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Trainmad091 in post 138587 said:
Hi All,

While timetable writing with choices and decisions (different trains running depending on the day of the week the sim picks) , I am trying to get the timetables to be chain compatible (York and Tyneside). How would this work?
In my head - I load York, it picks 'Wednesday' , I load tyneside ready to connect it to York but it loads 'Sunday' and all the Sunday seed trains are in Tyneside sim?

Thanks
Kyle
When I did a similar thing recently I had to repeatedly reopen one of the sims until it matched the day with the other one. I did wonder if there was a way of bypassing that.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 14:34 #138590
58050
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If you are creating a set of chainable timetables like I am at the moment I would have thought the person hosting would have a lead sim & all of the other sims would work off that sim. I'm close to start testing of my New Street summer 1990 TT. But after that I intend to writea summer 1990 TT to chain to New Street for Aston, Coventry, Wolverhampton & Saltley so at the end of ll that you'd be able to host a complete West Midlands session covering all the sims I've written the summer 1990 TT for & yes there will be numerous trains running with variations according to stock & traction variations throughout the whole lot. The lead sim I assume would pick the 'Day od the Week' & everything else should follow providing the individual TTs for each sim has been done correctly. That's what I'm working too, but I could be wrong. I'm as I progress with this West Midlands chain I'll find out when it's finished.
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 16:22 #138591
postal
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58050 in post 138590 said:
If you are creating a set of chainable timetables like I am at the moment I would have thought the person hosting would have a lead sim & all of the other sims would work off that sim. I'm close to start testing of my New Street summer 1990 TT. But after that I intend to writea summer 1990 TT to chain to New Street for Aston, Coventry, Wolverhampton & Saltley so at the end of ll that you'd be able to host a complete West Midlands session covering all the sims I've written the summer 1990 TT for & yes there will be numerous trains running with variations according to stock & traction variations throughout the whole lot. The lead sim I assume would pick the 'Day od the Week' & everything else should follow providing the individual TTs for each sim has been done correctly. That's what I'm working too, but I could be wrong. I'm as I progress with this West Midlands chain I'll find out when it's finished.
Pascal

That's the problem. You have to start a subsidiary sim before you connect so by starting the subsidiary sim a DotW has been randomly picked for that sim which may or may not be different to the DotW picked by the master sim. The DotW decision is not passed on from the master sim to the subsidiaries. You either have to keep starting the subsidiary sims until you get the right day, have a locked set of TTs where you can load the TT for the right day (as per Carlisle) or edit the DotW decision in the subsidiary TT to lock it to the right day then re-load after the edit. You can't assume that the master sim will set the DotW for the whole chain.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 16:35 #138592
swiftaw
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Maybe in the future there could be an option in the Loader that allows you to either select a specific day of the week or let it select a day at random (if the timetable is built for multiple days).
Last edited: 14/04/2021 at 16:35 by swiftaw
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 17:09 #138593
58050
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postal in post 138591 said:
58050 in post 138590 said:
If you are creating a set of chainable timetables like I am at the moment I would have thought the person hosting would have a lead sim & all of the other sims would work off that sim. I'm close to start testing of my New Street summer 1990 TT. But after that I intend to writea summer 1990 TT to chain to New Street for Aston, Coventry, Wolverhampton & Saltley so at the end of ll that you'd be able to host a complete West Midlands session covering all the sims I've written the summer 1990 TT for & yes there will be numerous trains running with variations according to stock & traction variations throughout the whole lot. The lead sim I assume would pick the 'Day od the Week' & everything else should follow providing the individual TTs for each sim has been done correctly. That's what I'm working too, but I could be wrong. I'm as I progress with this West Midlands chain I'll find out when it's finished.
Pascal

That's the problem. You have to start a subsidiary sim before you connect so by starting the subsidiary sim a DotW has been randomly picked for that sim which may or may not be different to the DotW picked by the master sim. The DotW decision is not passed on from the master sim to the subsidiaries. You either have to keep starting the subsidiary sims until you get the right day, have a locked set of TTs where you can load the TT for the right day (as per Carlisle) or edit the DotW decision in the subsidiary TT to lock it to the right day then re-load after the edit. You can't assume that the master sim will set the DotW for the whole chain.
OK John I wasn't aware of that problem.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 18:18 #138595
jc92
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swiftaw in post 138592 said:
Maybe in the future there could be an option in the Loader that allows you to either select a specific day of the week or let it select a day at random (if the timetable is built for multiple days).
Less about the day, more about triggering specific decisions in general (including Days of course) that way a decision to, for arguments sake, trigger a possession, could be forced, rather than being random.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 18:50 #138601
Dionysusnu
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If it's only two sims, it could be done by using a DOTW seed train that seeds on the master and enters on the subsidiary? Which would override the DOTW choice in the subsidiary because of the chaining.
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 19:19 #138603
jc92
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Dionysusnu in post 138601 said:
If it's only two sims, it could be done by using a DOTW seed train that seeds on the master and enters on the subsidiary? Which would override the DOTW choice in the subsidiary because of the chaining.
No, because the DOTW decision will normally be made on startup if any trains seed which have a DOTW decision. the seed train you've suggested would enter, but it wouldnt overide the decision thats already been made.

This would only work if nothing seeds or enters with a DOTW decision prior to the suggested seed train entering the subsidiary sim.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 14/04/2021 at 20:21 #138612
postal
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jc92 in post 138595 said:
swiftaw in post 138592 said:
Maybe in the future there could be an option in the Loader that allows you to either select a specific day of the week or let it select a day at random (if the timetable is built for multiple days).
Less about the day, more about triggering specific decisions in general (including Days of course) that way a decision to, for arguments sake, trigger a possession, could be forced, rather than being random.
Or a case of a chain of trains. Lots of the TTs covering periods until the very recent demise of the power station coal traffic have multiple conditional paths for trains running to and from power stations. Somewhere like Rugeley Power Station could have trains booked into the same arrival slot from say Avonmouth or Hunterston. On a Stafford sim that is handled by a simple decision. However if Stafford is chained at one end you could have the situation like the local decision picking the train from Hunterston then the Wolverhampton sim sending forward the train from Avonmouth. Even more complicated, if you ever get a chain long enough how would the Paisley and Bristol sims communicate to decide whether it was the turn of Hunterston or Avonmouth to send a train forward?

There is maybe a technical route if the decisions governing a particular train were all given the same name but there could be some complex naming if Paisley have trains to the Yorkshire power stations and Rugeley leaving in the same path, Avonmouth have trains to Didcot, the Yorkshire power stations and Rugeley similarly and the York sim having a decision to decide which train enters and whether it goes to Drax, Eggborough or Ferrybridge. I wish anyone luck in trying to herd that pack of cats.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 15:55 #138638
KymriskaDraken
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"Maybe in the future there could be an option in the Loader that allows you to either select a specific day of the week..."

That will never happen.


"...or let it select a day at random (if the timetable is built for multiple days)."

That's what happens now, albeit that the timetable selects the random day, not the Loader.




Kev


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Last edited: 15/04/2021 at 15:58 by KymriskaDraken
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 16:35 #138642
Stephen Fulcher
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KymriskaDraken in post 138638 said:

That will never happen.

Kev
Do you have any evidence of that?

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 16:43 #138643
swiftaw
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As an alternative, if there is a timetable with a day decision in it, it should be pretty easy to construct specific day versions of it (just change the decision percentages to 100% for a specific day), so you could have 6 versions of the timetable (Randomly Selected Day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday). So if you want to let the timetable pick the day you can, and if you want to pick the day yourself you can.
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 16:47 #138644
Stephen Fulcher
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You could also use seed groups to do it. Might have to start each day one minute apart but the effects of that would be negligible.

Each day would then be decision/ruled based upon one of the seeds that is unique to the day in question.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 18:36 #138650
postal
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swiftaw in post 138643 said:
As an alternative, if there is a timetable with a day decision in it, it should be pretty easy to construct specific day versions of it (just change the decision percentages to 100% for a specific day), so you could have 6 versions of the timetable (Randomly Selected Day, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday). So if you want to let the timetable pick the day you can, and if you want to pick the day yourself you can.
More specifically change the weightings of the decisions for the days you don't want to 0 rather than upping the ante on the day that you do want.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 18:50 #138651
postal
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Stephen Fulcher in post 138644 said:
You could also use seed groups to do it. Might have to start each day one minute apart but the effects of that would be negligible.

Each day would then be decision/ruled based upon one of the seeds that is unique to the day in question.
You don't need seed groups; you can just go back to how it used to be done before decisions came along. The core code was not written to specifically ensure that this method worked so Geoff and Clive always viewed it as an at your own risk strategy. You have a group of seed trains all entering at start time and all with a TD/UID which puts them at the front of the queue alphabetically (so typically 0A00/$0A00MON, 0A00/$0A00TUE etc). You then set up MUTEX rules for all five and add weights to the trains so they all have an equal chance. The core code will read the TT alphanumerically and come to 0A00/$0A00FRI first. As you want that to have a 1 in 5 chance of running you set the entry percentage as 20%. If that does not enter because of the MUTEX rules, the core code next reads 0A00/$0A00MON. You want that to have an equal chance of running as any of the other three remaining days so you set the entry percentage as 25%. It is then rinse and repeat with 0A00/$0A00THU set at 33%, 0A00/$0A00TUE as 50% and 0A00/$0A00WED with the entry set to 100% or left unchecked. You then have to have a multitude of rules with a train only running on one day of the week set to enter 0 minutes after that day's seed enters the sim and trains running on more than one day of the week having rules for every day that they do not run that they do not enter if that day's seed has run. Once the core code has read the first five seeds in the TT (and picked one to run) it then reads further down the list alphanumerically and enters all the other seeds which meet the requirements set up in the rules.

It does give lots and lots of rules in the TT. When decisions came along and allowed us to do away with this system we took out over 300 rules from the Carlisle 1979 TT.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 19:38 #138654
Stephen Fulcher
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I meant for the user to manually select a day John.

0000 seed Monday, 0001 seed Tuesday.....

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 20:38 #138656
postal
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Stephen Fulcher in post 138654 said:
I meant for the user to manually select a day John.

0000 seed Monday, 0001 seed Tuesday.....
Misunderstood you and spent a while writing up how clever we were with TTs before decisions came along!

However, I'm struggling with thinking through the implications. For example, if you seed at 00:00 for the Monday TT, what is the mechanism to make sure that a MWFO train due at 15:00 enters? Do you then have to have a set of DotW seed trains, one entering in each seed group and then all the rules linking back to those seeds so for example the MWFO train would not run if the TUE or THU seed had entered? No doubt I am missing the obvious so it would be good if you could put me me out of my misery!

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 15/04/2021 at 20:59 #138657
Stephen Fulcher
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I’ve never tried it, was thinking theoretically.

With the method of automatic selection you described above, the first train is selected on probability which determines the day and then all the others follow on using rules from that selection.

My idea was to use a seed group to select the day rather than use the selection method that’s been used in the past, and then assign rules along the same lines.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 16/04/2021 at 05:53 #138662
Meld
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I've never used DOTW decisions as TTs are set for a date relying on entry decisions for service variation.

The issue is you can't guarantee to get a matching DOTW when creating a chain session.

Theorising a little here,

The DOTW is selected on loading the TT and currently you have no way of specifying which one you require for the chain, apart from reloading time and again till you get a match.

I wonder if it would be possible to add an option on the timetable selection screen, where you are then offered the option to enter the day required to match the the DOTW of the master simulation, which would be read from the choices from the timetables DOTW decision.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 16/04/2021 at 10:28 #138669
bill_gensheet
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Meld in post 138662 said:

I wonder if it would be possible to add an option on the timetable selection screen, where you are then offered the option to enter the day required to match the the DOTW of the master simulation, which would be read from the choices from the timetables DOTW decision.
I see two ways, maybe each has it's best use.
One would be a kind of 'master decision' which might need a small amount of conformity in timetable writing as there's:
DOTW vs DAYOFTHEWEEK
TUE vs TU
THU vs TH
etc.
If done this way, it might be worth adding a couple of 'MASTERDECISION1' etc with A / B / C / D as that would allow some other decisions to be uniformly preset in a simpler way. Not sure if a slave sim would be able to form the chain and read data early enough, depends how much only happens at 'Multiplayer > Connect to External Signalbox' stage.


An alternative would be that on startup of each new sim run there is a tab for 'force decision before start' which would list all the decisions of that timetable and so could force any decisions.

Either way the effort of setting up 'PRESET FOR THU' versions of say 4 timetables to run a Thursday chain (or just because you like Thursdays) is not huge.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 16/04/2021 at 11:44 #138680
Meld
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KISS principle applies why would you want to overcomplicate things?

Master decision - You would need to read a TT before it is opened by the sim. and you don't chain till the sim & TT are loaded

Force Decision Start - That is exactly what I've outlined, I'm sure this would be quicker/easier to be implemented

The way I've outlined is, I feel, the easiest way to achieve what is needed with the minimum effort and simplicity for the end user.


I'm sure Geoff or Clive will have some thoughts on this idea.

Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!!
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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 16/04/2021 at 14:37 #138692
bill_gensheet
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Meld in post 138680 said:

Master decision - You would need to read a TT before it is opened by the sim. and you don't chain till the sim & TT are loaded

Force Decision Start - That is exactly what I've outlined, I'm sure this would be quicker/easier to be implemented
Thanks, clarifies that a chain would have problems as suspected.

Your
Quote:
to match the the DOTW of the master simulation, which would be read from the choices from the timetables DOTW decision.

suggested to me that you might expecta 'master' to always make a choice at startup and you could rely on using it - but not all timetables do. You only get that if there is a DOTW seed.

The 'force decisions tab' option would allow a chain or single run to be set up fully manually for any decisions needed, so includes those like 'HOLIDAY WEEK' or 'COALHUNTERSTON' or whatever that currently are either random or need separate timetables.

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Chaining sims with decisions and choices in the timetable 16/04/2021 at 17:49 #138696
KymriskaDraken
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