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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 18:37 #139104 | |
ambergatesm
36 posts |
Can anybody tell me if the real life operation of the token equipment at Ambergate is the same as the Derby PSB sim? This morning, the driver of the 1106 departure to Matlock was unable to obtain the token from the machine as it hadn't been released by the signaller. after it was released, he got the the token, but the signal failed to clear. after phoning the signaller, he replaced and removed the token and the signal cleared. Should the signal clear automatically when the token is removed, or is cleared by the signaller as per the sim?
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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 19:09 #139106 | |
Tempest Malice
122 posts |
My understanding of reality is that the signaller sets the route from DY572 signal, this route being set releases the token, but the aspect controls of the signal do not clear until the token is actually removed. So yes the signal clears without further intervention, but only if the signaller has first set the route. Which I believe is also the behaviour in the sim. Things are slightly more complicated on the return journey, not for trains already with a token which just keep it, but the token release from the matlock instrument (for trains that have returned a token at Matlock previously either to be locked in to the sidings behind the ground frame, or to pass through to peak rail) is controlled by a DY573 route in Ambergate interlocking (but without a matching signal) which the signaller has to set. This route seems not to be simulated in the sim. Last edited: 26/04/2021 at 19:47 by Tempest Malice Reason: some missing letters in words Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 20:39 #139110 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts 
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There is a contact in the token instrument which operates when a token is withdrawn to release the signal. Most common cause of the issue you are observed is the token being withdrawn too quickly. The contact doesn’t always operate correctly if the token isn’t withdrawn at the right speed. Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 20:49 #139111 | |
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Phil-jmw
674 posts |
Tempest Malice in post 139106 said:My understanding of reality is that the signaller sets the route from DY572 signal, this route being set releases the token, but the aspect controls of the signal do not clear until the token is actually removed. So yes the signal clears without further intervention, but only if the signaller has first set the route. Which I believe is also the behaviour in the sim.That is correct. To release a token at Matlock for a train to enter from Peak Rail a route was set from Matlock to Ambergate, but the means to set this route is not replicated in the sim. Regarding withdrawing and replacing tokens at Ambergate Station, it was possible to just set a route from DY572 towards Matlock and the driver could withdraw the token without first speaking to the signalman, but strictly speaking he should have rung the signalman to request the release. The flashing release request in the sim did not exist in real life. When a token was replaced at Ambergate the driver should have rung the signalman to confirm he had received the 'Token In' indication before departing towards Ambergate Jn, as if the token did not indicate 'In' on the panel DY571 Sig would not clear to allow a train off the branch. This confirmation phone call is not replicated in the sim. Last edited: 26/04/2021 at 20:55 by Phil-jmw Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 20:57 #139113 | |
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Phil-jmw
674 posts |
Stephen Fulcher in post 139110 said:There is a contact in the token instrument which operates when a token is withdrawn to release the signal.It was not uncommon for the signalman to tell a driver at Ambergate to replace the token and take it out again more slowly when he queried why the signal hadn't cleared. Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 21:08 #139114 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
From observation (from a safe distance) what usually happens is when the driver opens the cupboard, two white lights show on the machine. From what you say, that means that the route is set. when the driver removes the token, the signal changes to green immediately, so I thought that automatic release was the case. This morning it seems is if the driver attempted to remove the token before the route was set. Presumably the signaller then set the route and the driver obtained the token, but the signal didn't clear automatically. Repeating the process the reset the interlocking and the signal cleared.
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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 21:38 #139115 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
Thanks for all the replies, I am not sure how to include quotes in posts, so I'll give a general reply. The RSCo machine that was in use when the route was controlled from the PSB as simulated in the sim was replaced last year by a Tyer & Co machine, which operates in the way I described. Normally the drivers don't contact the signaller before taking the token. If they can't remove the token, then they contact the signaller. As was said, there is a knack to this which some drivers find difficult to master. When a train arrives at Ambergate from Matlock, the driver replaces the token in the machine and phones the signaller to inform them.
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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 23:30 #139120 | |
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Phil-jmw
674 posts |
ambergatesm in post 139114 said:From observation (from a safe distance) what usually happens is when the driver opens the cupboard, two white lights show on the machine. From what you say, that means that the route is set. when the driver removes the token, the signal changes to green immediately, so I thought that automatic release was the case. This morning it seems is if the driver attempted to remove the token before the route was set. Presumably the signaller then set the route and the driver obtained the token, but the signal didn't clear automatically. Repeating the process the reset the interlocking and the signal cleared.Bear in mind we are discussing the Derby PSB sim. Derby PSB closed in October 2018, and things may well now work differently at Ambergate to what went before. Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 26/04/2021 at 23:32 #139121 | |
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Phil-jmw
674 posts |
ambergatesm in post 139115 said:Thanks for all the replies, I am not sure how to include quotes in posts, so I'll give a general reply. The RSCo machine that was in use when the route was controlled from the PSB as simulated in the sim was replaced last year by a Tyer & Co machine, which operates in the way I described. Normally the drivers don't contact the signaller before taking the token. If they can't remove the token, then they contact the signaller. As was said, there is a knack to this which some drivers find difficult to master. When a train arrives at Ambergate from Matlock, the driver replaces the token in the machine and phones the signaller to inform them.It is not relevant to try and marry up what happens in real life now when discussing operations in relation to a sim of a signalbox that closed two and a half years ago as much may have changed. Last edited: 26/04/2021 at 23:36 by Phil-jmw Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 27/04/2021 at 10:22 #139126 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
My original post was regarding the operation of the machine now, and I only mentioned the sim in passing. The main question was about whether the signal operates automatically, or if it is cleared by the signaller. That question has now been answered.
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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 28/04/2021 at 20:07 #139181 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
Is the E.M.C.C. an ROC and does it have ARS?
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| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 28/04/2021 at 20:34 #139183 | |
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Tempest Malice
122 posts |
ambergatesm in post 139181 said:Is the E.M.C.C. an ROC and does it have ARS?So when the 13(?) ROC plan existed, EMCC was going to be one of the sites kept under it, but EMCC started existence before the concept of a ROC was even a thing (I believe it and others of a similar age were called Type "E" control centres in the late Railtrack early NR phrasebook of the time when first planned). Additionally being a "ROC" doesn't magically give any different properties to the signalling (It mainly means that route control including TOC representatives are in the same building, but given they have their own control room separate to the signalling one, them being in the same building has very little operational difference anyway as I understand it). EMCC is controlled entirely by WESTCADs, so no "ARS" if that acronym is taken to particularly mean the version that goes with IECCs (And generally speaking, the property of having a route-setting system bolted on will be on a workstation by workstation basis rather than just globally done to every system in a particular control centre though I will concede that in several a common system is chosen for all for consistency). But at EMCC whilst I think there are a few workstations without any automation, a reasonable number of workstations are equipped with SARS (an ARS equivalent for non-IECC control systems that several people on this forum will be quite familiar/involved with). With Netherfield and Derby workstations being equipped with DRS which is WESTCAD's own recently developed route setting system which I probably shouldn't say too much about given my involvement in it's development. Last edited: 28/04/2021 at 20:35 by Tempest Malice Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Operation of token equipment at Ambergate 28/04/2021 at 21:29 #139186 | |
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ambergatesm
36 posts |
Thankyou Tempest Malice for your very comprehensive and detailed reply. I monitor the Derby workstation area on Railcam live diagrams in order to keep tabs on the Matlock branch trains. Having run some sims with ARS, I know it can make decisions that a signaller wouldn't. I also sometimes use OTT, which shows the route set. Watching some routeing decisions I have often wondered if automation was involved, I appreciate that trains can get out of path when running late, which is usually sorted out by the signaller. It's also interesting to Know that different systems apply to different workstations, and, of course, Derby is the most recent addition, and therefore may incorporate more recent technology. I understand that you can't go into detail.
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