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Timing Point

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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 12:03 #139845
HST125Scorton
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When looking at timetables it would suggest that timing point location for Kirtlebridge G.F. isn't actually a timing point this only randomly applies on Down Main from Lockerbie. When you look at schedules in advanced Kirtlebridge G.F. isn't listed only Lockerbie, Cove Signal MC862 then Gretna Jn but on the day the train runs they show. So should Kirtlebridge G.F. be a timing point?
Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 12:10 #139847
JamesN
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HST125Scorton in post 139845 said:
When looking at timetables it would suggest that timing point location for Kirtlebridge G.F. isn't actually a timing point this only randomly applies on Down Main from Lockerbie. When you look at schedules in advanced Kirtlebridge G.F. isn't listed only Lockerbie, Cove Signal MC862 then Gretna Jn but on the day the train runs they show. So should Kirtlebridge G.F. be a timing point?
Where are you seeing this?

I ask as Realtimetrains “helpfully” inserts guessed, scheduled times at non-timing points.

Other open data sources show the actual schedules.

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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 12:10 #139848
Steamer
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If you're looking at RTT, then it interpolates a time for every location when the schedule is activated (usually around 24 hours before the train starts). For TT writing purposes, these should be ignored and only the locations shown on non-activated schedules used.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 13:01 #139851
HST125Scorton
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I'm using RTT but months ahead to August 18 2021. Kirtlebridge G.F. isn't shown and I think Steamer is correct it only shows 24hrs before the train departs. But when you validate a timetable for a train Kirtlebridge G.F. is automatically added into the timetable timings.
Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 20:11 #139859
GeoffM
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I know this has been said but it's worth re-iterating: RTT is not a reliable source of information. Not just locations inserted but imaginary line/path codes too. If there is nothing else then fine, but I would consider other sources first.
SimSig Boss
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 20:20 #139860
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Kirtlebridge is also not shown in the WTT as a timing pint (GF01).
Jamie S (JAMS)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:04 #139861
postal
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I don't know whether it still happens but there is a foible related to this when ARS is activated which I found when I was tidying up the 2006 TT for the Motherwell sim a while ago. If a TT for a seed train is written with only the WTT timings points and the seed point is located before one of the auto-inserted locations, the train seeds and reports "off planned path". To avoid this the auto-insertions as far as the next WTT timing point have to be manually added and saved in the TT.
“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
Last edited: 03/06/2021 at 22:02 by postal
Reason: None given

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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:25 #139863
Dionysusnu
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GeoffM in post 139859 said:
I know this has been said but it's worth re-iterating: RTT is not a reliable source of information. Not just locations inserted but imaginary line/path codes too. If there is nothing else then fine, but I would consider other sources first.

Is opentraintimes.com any different in this, or does it have the same issues?

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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:31 #139864
GeoffM
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Dionysusnu in post 139863 said:
GeoffM in post 139859 said:
I know this has been said but it's worth re-iterating: RTT is not a reliable source of information. Not just locations inserted but imaginary line/path codes too. If there is nothing else then fine, but I would consider other sources first.

Is opentraintimes.com any different in this, or does it have the same issues?
OTT is pretty pure and unadulterated, from my conversations with Peter. I'd rather something that came straight from the horse's mouth, warts and all, as it were, than something where the data is modified in ways only the author understands.

SimSig Boss
Last edited: 03/06/2021 at 21:31 by GeoffM
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:31 #139865
Steamer
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Dionysusnu in post 139863 said:
GeoffM in post 139859 said:
I know this has been said but it's worth re-iterating: RTT is not a reliable source of information. Not just locations inserted but imaginary line/path codes too. If there is nothing else then fine, but I would consider other sources first.

Is opentraintimes.com any different in this, or does it have the same issues?
Open Train Times doesn't add locations or update line codes.

It should be stressed that RTT only does this to activated schedules; those more than a day in the future are identical to Open Train Times, as far as I can tell. RTT does also have the benefit of showing allocations* on the day for a number of TOCs.

*Usual T&Cs apply, note that the information is also lost the day after, so get the stock noted down in one day!

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:54 #139866
HST125Scorton
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After locating the WTTs for verification Kirtlebridge isn't in the WTT as a timing pint, WTT Booklet GF01. Kirtlebridge wasn't even a location point in the timetable editor in the non loader and very first issue on the loader I had (Beta testing for TomOF). If it isn't in the WTTs then shouldn't it be in the timetable editor cause each time I add a train and validate it automatically adds Kirtlebridge with its own time. Normally I would take timings off TRUST but this time around I only have RTT/OTT and NR WTT books on offer with the correct diagram sheets from AWC/TPE/NT/SR.
Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 03/06/2021 at 21:55 #139867
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Steamer.

RTT shows the allocations used for up to 7 days after the event for those operators that give them at the time. I.e. today being the 3rd of June still shows the allocated sets for 28th May

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
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Timing Point 04/06/2021 at 06:32 #139870
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Will also add to this, that unit allocations shown on RTT may not be accurate especially on days of major disruption. It can take several hours for it to be updated or unit step ups are missed.
HAP
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Timing Point 04/06/2021 at 14:35 #139871
Steamer
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northroad in post 139867 said:
Steamer.

RTT shows the allocations used for up to 7 days after the event for those operators that give them at the time. I.e. today being the 3rd of June still shows the allocated sets for 28th May
I stand corrected- though I'm sure I've seen an XC service show as a HST (and observed it passing), then when I checked the next day for the power car number it was showing as a Voyager. Might have been a one-off.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 21:28 #139958
Chrisrail
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Kirtlebridge is not an official Timing Point after consulting TPR for LOR SC001.


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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 21:28 #139959
Chrisrail
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Kirtlebridge is not an official Timing Point after consulting TPR for LOR SC001.


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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 21:42 #139960
HST125Scorton
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Chrisrail in post 139958 said:
Kirtlebridge is not an official Timing Point after consulting TPR for LOR SC001.

Indeed I checked these when making this post, could you post the Carstairs to Gretna Jn image as its only that direction to the South that pops Kirlebridge in as validation.

Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 22:06 #139963
Chrisrail
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Here you go my friend


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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 22:08 #139964
HST125Scorton
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Chrisrail in post 139963 said:
Here you go my friend

Thanks but wrong image haha Carstairs-Lockerbie-Gretna this one is via GSW

Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 12/06/2021 at 22:25 #139965
Chrisrail
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Even checking in TRUST

Train 092L86M runs SO from 22/05/21 to 11/12/21 - Auto-Call
Train category OO Sprinter 33 miles Applicable Timetable Service
Train service code 23579003 Catering N/A
Uid W93986 Sector 60 Sub-sector 56 Set up by TSDB on 05/03/21 Type WTT

Location Booked C Pw Miles Tlod Ctg Pfm Eng Pth Pcnt TI
09161 CARLISLE 23:10 S
09095 GRETNA JN PASS 23:19 2 9
09085 GRETNA GN 23:20 23:21 0 10
09033 ANNAN 23:29 23:29 0 18 1 1H
09022 DUMFRIES 23:47 33

Train 071L61M runs SO from 22/05/21 to 11/12/21 - Auto-Call
Train category XX Sprinter 116 miles Applicable Timetable Service
Train service code 23579003 Catering N/A
Uid W93047 Sector 60 Sub-sector 56 Set up by TSDB on 05/03/21 Type WTT

Location Booked C Pw Miles Tlod Ctg Pfm Eng Pth Pcnt TI
08825 AUCHINLCK 23:09 23:09 0 38
08834 NEWCUMNCK 23:17 23:18 0 46
08841 KIRKCONEL 23:26 23:26 0 53
08845 SANQUHAR 23:31 23:31 0 56
09013 THORNHILL PASS 23:43 2 68
09017 HOLYWOOD PASS 23:52 2 79 1
09022 DUMFRIES 23:57 23:59 0 82
09033 ANNAN 00:14 00:14 0 98
09085 GRETNA GN 00:22 00:23 0 106 1 1
09095 GRETNA JN PASS 00:27 2 107
09161 CARLISLE 00:36 116


Train 061Z181 runs SO from 12/06/21 to 12/06/21 - Auto-Call
Train category XU Loco-Hauled 344 miles Applicable Timetable Service
Train service code 21708001 Catering N/A
Uid U91228 Sector 89 Sub-sector 01 Set up by TSDB on 13/05/21 Type STP

Location Booked C Pw Miles Tlod Ctg Pfm Eng Pth Pcnt TI
07431 HOLYTOWNJ PASS 17:46 2 113
07945 WISHAW PASS 17:50 2 116
07944 LAWJN UPL 17:55 18:04 0 119
07956 LANARK JN PASS 18:14 2 127 1
07962 CARSTAIRS PASS 18:17 2 129
07966 CARSTSSJN PASS 18:17 2 130
07972 ABINGTON PASS 18:30 2 145
07975 BEATOKSUM PASS 18:37 2 153
07977 BEATTOCK PASS 18:44 2 163
07981 LOCKERBIE PASS 18:56 2 177 2
07988 COVE862 PASS 19:08 2 190 1
09095 GRETNA JN PASS 19:12 2 194 1H
09161 CARLISLE 19:22 19:24 0 203

Train 096K201 runs SO from 12/06/21 to 12/06/21 - Auto-Call
Train category DH Loco-Hauled 62 miles Applicable Timetable Service
Train service code 53790125 Catering N/A UIC none
Uid B24341 Sector 05 Sub-sector 16 Set up by TSDB on 03/06/21 Type STP

Location Booked C Pw Miles Tlod Ctg Pfm Eng Pth Consist
09150 CARLISLEY 20:16 600 H ORIGINATING PT
09099 FLORISTON PASS 20:31 2 3 PASSING POINT
09095 GRETNA JN PASS 20:35 2 4 PASSING POINT
07985 QUINTHLPS 20:39 21:30 0 6 CALLING POINT
07989 COVE863 PASS 21:34 2 8 PASSING POINT
07981 LOCKERBIE PASS 21:48 2 21 PASSING POINT
07977 BEATTOCK PASS 22:02 2 35 PASSING POINT
07975 BEATOKSUM 22:18 22:33 0 45 CALLING POINT
07972 ABINGTON PASS 22:42 2 53 PASSING POINT
07969 SYMINGTON 22:50 62 TERMINATING PT

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Timing Point 14/06/2021 at 17:00 #140007
GeoffM
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Please be mindful of copyright when reproducing extracts. Copyright allows for a small sample only.

These extracts are publicly accessible anyway: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/industry-and-commercial/information-for-operators/operational-rules/

SimSig Boss
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Timing Point 14/06/2021 at 17:09 #140008
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Has anyone considered that "Kirtlebridge" might exist only as a timing point historically in reality. Perhaps it is in the sim only for the sake of the earlier era(s)?

HST125Scorton in post 139851 said:
But when you validate a timetable for a train Kirtlebridge G.F. is automatically added into the timetable timings.

(though assuming that the above post is referring to sim auto-insertion on validation then it would probably make the behaviour a bit of a sim data bug as I'd imagine you don't want to be auto-inserting timing points which shouldn't exist in newer timetables)

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Timing Point 14/06/2021 at 17:17 #140009
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Tempest Malice in post 140008 said:
Has anyone considered that "Kirtlebridge" might exist only as a timing point historically in reality. Perhaps it is in the sim only for the sake of the earlier era(s)?

HST125Scorton in post 139851 said:
But when you validate a timetable for a train Kirtlebridge G.F. is automatically added into the timetable timings.

(though assuming that the above post is referring to sim auto-insertion on validation then it would probably make the behaviour a bit of a sim data bug as I'd imagine you don't want to be auto-inserting timing points which shouldn't exist in newer timetables)
Previous versions of Carlisle I've had during Beta Testing on Loader and the 2 EXE Version didn't bring in Kirtlebridge as a location not to mention that it wasn't in the timetable editors. Now historically it could of been used as a timing point for a previous era eg 1980s but I believe it was a cross over between Up/Dn Mains from the information I have to hand. Kirtlebridge shouldn't exist in 2000s & 2016s era, Kirtlebridge is auto populated within the timetable when validating a timetable. Under operation rules and TRUST data Kirtlebridge doesn't show. There could be a valid reason why said location is there.

Aaron (AJRO)
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Timing Point 14/06/2021 at 19:25 #140025
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HST125Scorton in post 140009 said:


Previous versions of Carlisle I've had during Beta Testing on Loader and the 2 EXE Version didn't bring in Kirtlebridge as a location not to mention that it wasn't in the timetable editors. Now historically it could of been used as a timing point for a previous era eg 1980s but I believe it was a cross over between Up/Dn Mains from the information I have to hand. Kirtlebridge shouldn't exist in 2000s & 2016s era, Kirtlebridge is auto populated within the timetable when validating a timetable. Under operation rules and TRUST data Kirtlebridge doesn't show. There could be a valid reason why said location is there.
When you validate the TT the auto-insert is applied, does it stay if you then click on the clear auto insert function after you click ok on the schedule ??

If it doesn't stay then theres no problem is there ?

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Timing Point 14/06/2021 at 19:45 #140027
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Meld in post 140025 said:
HST125Scorton in post 140009 said:


Previous versions of Carlisle I've had during Beta Testing on Loader and the 2 EXE Version didn't bring in Kirtlebridge as a location not to mention that it wasn't in the timetable editors. Now historically it could of been used as a timing point for a previous era eg 1980s but I believe it was a cross over between Up/Dn Mains from the information I have to hand. Kirtlebridge shouldn't exist in 2000s & 2016s era, Kirtlebridge is auto populated within the timetable when validating a timetable. Under operation rules and TRUST data Kirtlebridge doesn't show. There could be a valid reason why said location is there.
When you validate the TT the auto-insert is applied, does it stay if you then click on the clear auto insert function after you click ok on the schedule ??

If it doesn't stay then theres no problem is there ?
When validating it auto inserts and when I click Clear Auto Insert it clears off the timetable. I don't think it affects trains entering from Lockerbie but not yet checked that as I'm still writing timetables.

Aaron (AJRO)
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