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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 20:08 #141251
Hap
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As most sims have an option of either 0400/0445/1400 starts, you could start the session at either one of those times.
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
Last edited: 20/08/2021 at 20:09 by Hap
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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 20:51 #141252
Stephen Fulcher
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Dionysusnu in post 141238 said:
Meld in post 141236 said:
But the big question is ' Do we need such gameish features, for what is the most accurate UK signalling simulation around ???'

There's already game-ish features like the F11 menu, train list, or more related, the fast-forward feature. I see this as an improvement to the latter thing.
Most of what is contained within the F11 menu can be done in real life with a call to a Signalling Technician or MOM.

It was made available, if I remember right, because many users requested the ability to do things like handcrank points during failures that lock them in one position or another, which is of course a realistic course of action.

Given the inability in ANY computer simulation to phone a driver and ask an infinite number of questions, nothing in the train list seems unreasonable, and let’s not forget that TOC controls can monitor train speeds in real time these days.

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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 21:24 #141253
jc92
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Meld in post 141236 said:
But the big question is ' Do we need such gameish features, for what is the most accurate UK signalling simulation around ???'
For what its worth, I found myself with a spare 20 minutes last Saturday (outside working a regular service and a ton of post gala shunting movements) and I filled it by cooking and eating a fry up. I normally take a book with me just in case I need to fill more time.

There's always something to fill the time, and in fact that's part of the real life challenge of working a box - staying alert and attentive when nothing is happening, then reacting promptly when something does happen.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 21:27 #141254
Dionysusnu
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jc92 in post 141253 said:
Meld in post 141236 said:
But the big question is ' Do we need such gameish features, for what is the most accurate UK signalling simulation around ???'
For what its worth, I found myself with a spare 20 minutes last Saturday (outside working a regular service and a ton of post gala shunting movements) and I filled it by cooking and eating a fry up. I normally take a book with me just in case I need to fill more time.

There's always something to fill the time, and in fact that's part of the real life challenge of working a box - staying alert and attentive when nothing is happening, then reacting promptly when something does happen.

No one's forcing you to speed up the time. If you like sitting around watching nothing happen in the sim, suit yourself. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should be forced to do that. (Granted obviously fastforward already exists, but you get the gist)

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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 21:43 #141255
Stephen Fulcher
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When I was a preserved railway signalman 15 years ago if wasn’t uncommon to be busy for ten minutes and then nothing happen for an hour.
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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 22:15 #141256
Hap
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Dionysusnu in post 141254 said:
jc92 in post 141253 said:
Meld in post 141236 said:
But the big question is ' Do we need such gameish features, for what is the most accurate UK signalling simulation around ???'
For what its worth, I found myself with a spare 20 minutes last Saturday (outside working a regular service and a ton of post gala shunting movements) and I filled it by cooking and eating a fry up. I normally take a book with me just in case I need to fill more time.

There's always something to fill the time, and in fact that's part of the real life challenge of working a box - staying alert and attentive when nothing is happening, then reacting promptly when something does happen.

No one's forcing you to speed up the time. If you like sitting around watching nothing happen in the sim, suit yourself. But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should be forced to do that. (Granted obviously fastforward already exists, but you get the gist)
https://www.SimSig.co.uk/Home/About

"SimSig places you in the signaller's seat and lets you control the trains. You will be presented with an environment closely resembling a real signalling control centre, including the screen display and controls. It recreates the signalling as realistically as possible and it is up to you to route the trains to their destination and do your best to keep them on time. You will have to make the same kind of decisions that real signallers do to keep the railway running as smoothly as possible."

The aim of the product is to bring (as much as possible) a realistic life of a signaller. Night shifts can be boring, long and uneventful. This is the purpose of the simulation. That's the product description, that's the aim of the sim. There's advice for new users on where to start, get a feel of how the sims work starting off small and then moving onto the bigger sims as confidence and understanding develops. The forum is used for questions where someone is struggling and advice is given.

I couldn't even count on two hands how many products that I've bought and it hasn't been what I expected, In those instances I wish there was a try before you buy option, just like what Simsig offers. You can select the sim you want to try, try out the TT, If it doesn't suit your desires then you wouldn't buy it would you? Granted that there's free sims here, but as I said before, if the night shift isn't for you then you can try one of the later starting times that are available for many sims.

If this product was just as alike as any other product, what makes this unique...

The options, advice and guidance is there for all users to see what this product is about and it's aim. No one is being "forced" to do anything, it's the TT, it's what's meant to happen. it is what it is. It's like asking for a game developer to add in a feature where you don't want the story line, just the action... or playing a game where you have to complete tasks to get to another level and you just want to have the option of going to the next level without doing tasks...

At the end of the day, The OP has asked a fair question/request. Everyone has an opinion on it which is perfectly fine. Geoff and Clive have both commented on the matter and explained the complexities and implications. Unfortunately, somethings just can't or won't be considered. This is the same with any product on the planet.

How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 22:44 #141257
TUT
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I can't believe anyone really believes that sitting around doing nothing for an hour while waiting for the next train to turn up is part of the stated purpose of SimSig, or part of its attraction. Otherwise we wouldn't have 0400 start times, or the ability to speed up time.

SimSig is supposed to be realistic insofar as the things that you do do in SimSig are like the things that you do do in real life. It's supposed to look like an IECC and operate like an IECC. But we're not actually signalling trains, we're not actually getting paid, we're not signing on for an 8 hour shift at 1400 and doing nothing but SimSig on 1x speed.

We're playing a game.

There are plenty of things SimSig doesn't simulate for that very reason. Including SPADs and fatalities and many other things besides. Usability and playability are considerations, which is surely why most simulations of mechanical boxes include several boxes so that people aren't bored when enjoying their hobby. Cause they aren't actually getting paid.

Hap in post 141256 said:
It's like asking for a game developer to add in a feature where you don't want the story line, just the action... or playing a game where you have to complete tasks to get to another level and you just want to have the option of going to the next level without doing tasks...
No it's like wanting to play a video game without the long loading screens, which I think you'll find is exactly what people want.

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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 23:08 #141258
TUT
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jc92 in post 141253 said:
Meld in post 141236 said:
But the big question is ' Do we need such gameish features, for what is the most accurate UK signalling simulation around ???'
For what its worth, I found myself with a spare 20 minutes last Saturday (outside working a regular service and a ton of post gala shunting movements) and I filled it by cooking and eating a fry up. I normally take a book with me just in case I need to fill more time.

There's always something to fill the time, and in fact that's part of the real life challenge of working a box - staying alert and attentive when nothing is happening, then reacting promptly when something does happen.
I had an 8 hour shift today during which I handled a grand total of three trains, only one of which I actually dealt with from start to finish.

It was boring. I would not recommend making a simulation of it and charging £10 a go.

However, as well as that, I granted and then subsequently gave up a sidings possession, I filled out my occurrence book, I reported and looked-up times on TRUST, I read a WON, I read a PON, I liaised with Train Running Control twice and I made a call on the GSM-R which I had to initiate by dialing up the unit number, which I had to look up on TRUST. Also this week I've had several trains pass with portable tail lamp out and, though I wasn't involved, Marylebone were doing pilot working due to a track circuit failure on the Up & Down Aylesbury Line. Absolutely none of these things are simulated by SimSig.

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Skip to the next event 20/08/2021 at 23:57 #141259
Hap
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TUT in post 141257 said:
I can't believe anyone really believes that sitting around doing nothing for an hour while waiting for the next train to turn up is part of the stated purpose of SimSig, or part of its attraction. Otherwise we wouldn't have 0400 start times, or the ability to speed up time.

SimSig is supposed to be realistic insofar as the things that you do do in SimSig are like the things that you do do in real life. It's supposed to look like an IECC and operate like an IECC. But we're not actually signalling trains, we're not actually getting paid, we're not signing on for an 8 hour shift at 1400 and doing nothing but SimSig on 1x speed.

We're playing a game.

There are plenty of things SimSig doesn't simulate for that very reason. Including SPADs and fatalities and many other things besides. Usability and playability are considerations, which is surely why most simulations of mechanical boxes include several boxes so that people aren't bored when enjoying their hobby. Cause they aren't actually getting paid.

Hap in post 141256 said:
It's like asking for a game developer to add in a feature where you don't want the story line, just the action... or playing a game where you have to complete tasks to get to another level and you just want to have the option of going to the next level without doing tasks...
No it's like wanting to play a video game without the long loading screens, which I think you'll find is exactly what people want.
Well apparently opinions don't matter. I think your opinion is perfectly valid, long loading screens/times are extremely frustrating. Don't think there's that issue with Simsig though.

Here's the definition between a game and a simulation....

"A game is what one can play in a computer game whereas a simulation combines strategy and skills along with the game. Simulations and games are very much different in their purposes. While a simulation is designed for evaluative or computational purposes, a game is designed for entertainment and educational purposes."

It might be a "game", but a video game and a simulating game are two very different things.

Quote:
There are plenty of things SimSig doesn't simulate for that very reason. Including SPADs and fatalities and many other things besides. Usability and playability are considerations, which is surely why most simulations of mechanical boxes include several boxes so that people aren't bored when enjoying their hobby. Cause they aren't actually getting paid.
What if... and I'm going out on all limbs here... What if, people with a hobby for signalling actually want to experience all aspects of it (Excluding the fatalities/Spads which I will not argue with 100%)... You've actually inadvertently given an insight to other users what a signaller could do during the quiet times and granted that this stuff isn't available to the public. BUT they now know some of the dealings that goes on during the night shift or gaps between trains. So kudos for bringing that up.

For the record, I haven't discounted the OP request. I'm just thinking logically...how that would be implemented on SimSig without the detrimental effect on all other users, their saves etc. When things do need to be addressed that affects the loader/core code to ensure that all the sims work are unavoidable.

Perhaps what should be requested is that on a midnight start TT, where the TT writer knows that the early hours are quiet or the whole sim TT is quiet, they should add in a bit of information on the TT description that during these hours services are light and during those times the signaller could be doing any of the above tasks that you mentioned, then advise that for users wanting more train action or events they should try the later TT start options?

There're plenty of requests on here for the WHL. What's the point having that sim if you're only going to deal with 10 trains in a whole day?

I'm trying to be proactive here rather than reactive.

Quote:
I can't believe anyone really believes that sitting around doing nothing for an hour while waiting for the next train to turn up is part of the stated purpose of SimSig, or part of its attraction. Otherwise we wouldn't have 0400 start times, or the ability to speed up time.
I refer to my above mention of the WHL. Are you just going to fast forward through the day to get the trains through and be done with it in ten minutes?

Everyone has a different need and you can't meet every one of those needs. What may be boring for you may be really interesting for someone else, especially now that you've given an insight to what goes on during those "boring" times.

How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 00:54 #141260
JamesN
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The original suggestion has merit in my opinion, but I suspect for the reasons clive outlined upthread it will likely be impractical to define what “an event” is.

The counter-suggestion is that the existing debug auto-pause functionality is opened up to players, this would enable one to switch on auto-pause triggered by say, train enters at x, then set the clock to maximum to fast forward through the quiet times safe in the knowledge that when that next train enters the game will pause and allow you to reset the speed to something you’re comfortable with.

Added to Mantis under Mantis 34425

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 01:06 #141261
TUT
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Hap in post 141259 said:
TUT in post 141257 said:
I can't believe anyone really believes that sitting around doing nothing for an hour while waiting for the next train to turn up is part of the stated purpose of SimSig, or part of its attraction. Otherwise we wouldn't have 0400 start times, or the ability to speed up time.

SimSig is supposed to be realistic insofar as the things that you do do in SimSig are like the things that you do do in real life. It's supposed to look like an IECC and operate like an IECC. But we're not actually signalling trains, we're not actually getting paid, we're not signing on for an 8 hour shift at 1400 and doing nothing but SimSig on 1x speed.

We're playing a game.

There are plenty of things SimSig doesn't simulate for that very reason. Including SPADs and fatalities and many other things besides. Usability and playability are considerations, which is surely why most simulations of mechanical boxes include several boxes so that people aren't bored when enjoying their hobby. Cause they aren't actually getting paid.

Hap in post 141256 said:
It's like asking for a game developer to add in a feature where you don't want the story line, just the action... or playing a game where you have to complete tasks to get to another level and you just want to have the option of going to the next level without doing tasks...
No it's like wanting to play a video game without the long loading screens, which I think you'll find is exactly what people want.
Well apparently opinions don't matter. I think your opinion is perfectly valid, long loading screens/times are extremely frustrating. Don't think there's that issue with Simsig though.

Here's the definition between a game and a simulation....

"A game is what one can play in a computer game whereas a simulation combines strategy and skills along with the game. Simulations and games are very much different in their purposes. While a simulation is designed for evaluative or computational purposes, a game is designed for entertainment and educational purposes."

It might be a "game", but a video game and a simulating game are two very different things.

Quote:
There are plenty of things SimSig doesn't simulate for that very reason. Including SPADs and fatalities and many other things besides. Usability and playability are considerations, which is surely why most simulations of mechanical boxes include several boxes so that people aren't bored when enjoying their hobby. Cause they aren't actually getting paid.
What if... and I'm going out on all limbs here... What if, people with a hobby for signalling actually want to experience all aspects of it (Excluding the fatalities/Spads which I will not argue with 100%)... You've actually inadvertently given an insight to other users what a signaller could do during the quiet times and granted that this stuff isn't available to the public. BUT they now know some of the dealings that goes on during the night shift or gaps between trains. So kudos for bringing that up.

For the record, I haven't discounted the OP request. I'm just thinking logically...how that would be implemented on SimSig without the detrimental effect on all other users, their saves etc. When things do need to be addressed that affects the loader/core code to ensure that all the sims work are unavoidable.

Perhaps what should be requested is that on a midnight start TT, where the TT writer knows that the early hours are quiet or the whole sim TT is quiet, they should add in a bit of information on the TT description that during these hours services are light and during those times the signaller could be doing any of the above tasks that you mentioned, then advise that for users wanting more train action or events they should try the later TT start options?

There're plenty of requests on here for the WHL. What's the point having that sim if you're only going to deal with 10 trains in a whole day?

I'm trying to be proactive here rather than reactive.

Quote:
I can't believe anyone really believes that sitting around doing nothing for an hour while waiting for the next train to turn up is part of the stated purpose of SimSig, or part of its attraction. Otherwise we wouldn't have 0400 start times, or the ability to speed up time.
I refer to my above mention of the WHL. Are you just going to fast forward through the day to get the trains through and be done with it in ten minutes?

Everyone has a different need and you can't meet every one of those needs. What may be boring for you may be really interesting for someone else, especially now that you've given an insight to what goes on during those "boring" times.
Apologies if I came off frustrated or rude in my own turn at any point

I bring up loading screens because those are the bits while playing a game where you're waiting while nothing's happening for the game you paid for to start again. You're not actually doing anything in the game, you're waiting for the game to start again. And that's what you're doing when there are no trains and you're waiting for the next 'event', realistically, isn't it? No gaming is happening, no signalling is happening, you're just waiting until you can't start playing again really aren't you. Unless you get a UWC request, I guess.

I think you raise an excellent point though with the WHL. I totally agree that there's a danger of skipping through a sim without really playing it. Completely agree. I actually play all sims, all of them, on 1x speed and I always wait in real time for the whole timetable to complete. Because I'm a bit weird and a tiny bit OCD perhaps. Not because I think I'm living up to the full spirit of SimSig. And I know there have been sims like North East Wales and Penzance and Royston where I've spent most of the time doing other things and I've just left SimSig running in the background, and I don't really feel I got much out of those sims. And I do agree that there's a danger that skipping from event to event might stop you from getting immersed in the sim. But as I've just shown, waiting, bored, for something to happen, getting fed up, setting a long way ahead and then forgetting about a sim can be equally as bad, and I think that's on the users to work out what's best for them. I wouldn't, personally, favour a WHL sim, I think people just quite like the area and the novelty of RETB. I think it wouldn't be the best game to play.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 02:35 #141262
GeoffM
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This screenshot shows what we have in the debug window for testers and developers. If that's what people want then so be it, easy enough to allow regular users to see it. But it certainly doesn't cover everything, as Clive already stated. For example, you have a lone train running through the area and it ends up at a red signal: I can use "any train stops moving" for that - great, except the train is already stopped. So when do you want to be notified? Within sighting distance of a restrictive aspect? Already too late. A minute before? Driver can't see it, so it's not an "event", can't be triggered. These tools are meant for debugging where you're trying to reach a certain point with (usually) a specific set of circumstances, and you don't really care what's going on elsewhere - including stopped trains.

All I'm saying is, yes we can offer you these tools, but they come with their own pitfalls and limitations - and don't you dare complain that they don't comply with your requirements when it all goes belly up! :)


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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 02:38 #141263
GeoffM
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TUT in post 141261 said:
I wouldn't, personally, favour a WHL sim, I think people just quite like the area and the novelty of RETB. I think it wouldn't be the best game to play.
Neither would I. Similarly, the ERTMS Cambrian line, which I refer to as "sheep sim" as there are a lot more sheep involved than trains. Fascinating to see the modern technology in the box but dull as dishwater to operate.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 08:39 #141268
clive
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Hap in post 141256 said:

Night shifts can be boring, long and uneventful. This is the purpose of the simulation.
Actually, I don't accept that. Otherwise why do we have the ability to change speed?

Hap in post 141256 said:

At the end of the day, The OP has asked a fair question/request. Everyone has an opinion on it which is perfectly fine.
Indeed. If someone makes a suggestion, please treat it calmly and politely (Hap, this isn't a dig at you). If you think it doesn't fit the spirit of SimSig, explain why, though be prepared for others to disagree. Remember, if we all had the same opinions everything would be boring.

The old-timers will remember the late Maxand. Many of his suggestions were viewed at the time as being annoying or not in the spirit of SimSig. Yet more than one are now a standard feature.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 08:48 #141272
clive
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Hap in post 141259 said:

For the record, I haven't discounted the OP request. I'm just thinking logically...how that would be implemented on SimSig without the detrimental effect on all other users, their saves etc. When things do need to be addressed that affects the loader/core code to ensure that all the sims work are unavoidable.
For some meanings of "event", this is actually pretty simple. For example:

Dionysusnu in post 141235 said:

A basic definition of "event" could be:
- Any message appearing in the message window (would also allow a certain degree of user filtering, by disabling messages that shouldn't pause time)
- Any F7 message appearing
- Any incoming phone call
would be pretty simple to implement if all we want is a pause when these happen (so that you can put the speed back from 50:1 to 1:1). Phone call is already in auto-pause and the other two would be simple to add to it (just nobody's asked so far).

The original request appeared to be something like "until 3 minutes before a train does something". Predicting "something" isn't easy because of the way the core code is written. Pausing once "something" has happened is much easier.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 08:52 #141273
clive
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GeoffM in post 141262 said:
This screenshot shows what we have in the debug window for testers and developers.
[...]
All I'm saying is, yes we can offer you these tools, but they come with their own pitfalls and limitations - and don't you dare complain that they don't comply with your requirements when it all goes belly up! :)
Take careful note of what Geoff says here.

Some other things could probably be added easily (e.g. "any message in F7"). Others would be very hard (e.g. the way that train motion works, it's not possible to distinguish braking for a station stop from braking for a TSR from braking for defensive driving). And even if we do this, it won't be more than a few more things that get added because I have other priorities.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 08:57 #141274
clive
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GeoffM in post 141263 said:

Neither would I. Similarly, the ERTMS Cambrian line, which I refer to as "sheep sim" as there are a lot more sheep involved than trains. Fascinating to see the modern technology in the box but dull as dishwater to operate.
Actually, I was on that the other day and it got quite exciting as we came to a sudden halt a few metres after departing Barmouth. Contact lost with the ETRMS (though not Machy box) and we ended up running at 25 mph under written train order. 26 down at Harlech and a very annoyed driver on the train that crossed us there.

(There's also a three-way AHB at Harlech. Never seen one of those before.)

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 09:17 #141275
9pN1SEAp
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Hi Clive,

I'd be very happy if such a skip was simply stopped at "any message in F7" or "any phone call received". That'd surely be perfect.

Thanks
Jamie

Jamie S (JAMS)
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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 09:30 #141276
TUT
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GeoffM in post 141262 said:
This screenshot shows what we have in the debug window for testers and developers. If that's what people want then so be it, easy enough to allow regular users to see it. But it certainly doesn't cover everything, as Clive already stated. For example, you have a lone train running through the area and it ends up at a red signal: I can use "any train stops moving" for that - great, except the train is already stopped. So when do you want to be notified? Within sighting distance of a restrictive aspect? Already too late. A minute before? Driver can't see it, so it's not an "event", can't be triggered. These tools are meant for debugging where you're trying to reach a certain point with (usually) a specific set of circumstances, and you don't really care what's going on elsewhere - including stopped trains.

All I'm saying is, yes we can offer you these tools, but they come with their own pitfalls and limitations - and don't you dare complain that they don't comply with your requirements when it all goes belly up! :)

I completely agree that something like that would ruin the SimSig challenge and realism and turn it into a video game, definitely.

The original request as I interpreted it (which I think has a lot of merit) was simply: suppose it's 0520. There are no trains on sim. In F4 the next entry is at 0549. A button to jump to 0546 (or 0549 - x: x = to a suitable number of minutes) would be pretty handy. A (presumably) more difficult thing to accomplish, which was perhaps also contained within the original request, would be to jump to x minutes before the next timetabled activity. Let's say it's 0520. In F4 the next entry is at 0730. However, you've got a couple of trains in sim which are due to depart a terminal station at, say, 0549 and 0628. A button to jump to 0546 would again be nice. Then, if the first train dropped off the sim at 0559, a second press to get you to 0625 that'd be something which could really improve the experience.

A second request that seemed to come up in the discussion was to automatically pause the fast forward clock at the points 9pN1SEAp mentioned (any message in F7 or any phone call received). There we are getting into cheating territory a bit I think but it's a fair request.

I don't so much think skip me forward until I next need to intervene and then tell me what to do even when wheels are turning and I'm supposedly playing the game was quite the original request. That would be a shame, in my opinion, if we ever saw that.

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 10:21 #141278
welshdave257
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Lol. Am I the only one who uses the quiet periods in a sim to try and learn the signal numbers and their locations so I don't have to keep right clicking or referring to a signal plan?
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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 12:33 #141283
bill_gensheet
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TUT in post 141276 said:


The original request as I interpreted it (which I think has a lot of merit) was simply: suppose it's 0520. There are no trains on sim. In F4 the next entry is at 0549. A button to jump to 0546 (or 0549 - x: x = to a suitable number of minutes) would be pretty handy.
For that exact scenario, specifically no train present, the +15 minute debug feature would be as good.
- You do not get backed up phone calls or failures in the 15 min step on - so no issue there. Might affect the chance of an LC call soon after, to keep the probabilities straight ?
- Any train in sim does not move, this really is simply nudging the clock along. You can use it for a GMT to BST game, but not BST to GMT of course.
- Any train due then promptly enters, if you step too far it will be 1 - 16 minutes late.

The only annoyance for me when using it to test timetables is that any active rules of the '6A00 enters 60 minutes after 0A00 exits' type are not adjusted. So those trains have to be tested at x62.5 speed.
May well be that the rule timer mechanism is clock-tick driven not end-time driven ?

Bill

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Skip to the next event 21/08/2021 at 14:20 #141286
bugsy
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welshdave257 in post 141278 said:
Lol. Am I the only one who uses the quiet periods in a sim to try and learn the signal numbers and their locations so I don't have to keep right clicking or referring to a signal plan?
Probably :O

I sometimes find it hard enough to locate a given signal on the signal number plans. Trying to learn where they all are would be almost impossible for me due to my poor memory

Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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