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A current feature that isn't prototypical

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 10:54 #141477
Guts
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The feature where a train had been delayed but calls before departure, but it doesn't leave/depart until the call is answered is not prototypical.

Most drivers will depart as soon as the problem is sorted.

I had a 2 real world delays last week on shift, one at Watford Jn and one at Willesden Jn DC, both ill passengers, the drivers both reported the ill passengers, we called station staff and ambulance attendence, both train departed without any call to the Box, which meant the ill passenger had been removed from the train.

It worked better and more prototypical before, where the train rang but if you cleared the signal the call ended and the train departed.

I think the extra call saying the train is further delayed is brilliant because that sometimes happens, but there are occasions where you cannot replace the signal to danger any way, and once the train departs, the job starts moving and it saves a phone call. IIRC, you get a small ding, which lets you know the/a delayed train has departed

Is there any way for this to be changed back?
Or is the general consensus, that it's a good feature

Last edited: 08/09/2021 at 10:55 by Guts
Reason: None given

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 11:25 #141478
Dionysusnu
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Slightly related - the train triggers TRTS incorrectly when it gets delayed again. So you may clear the signal for TRTS, then answer the phone only to find the driver reporting they've got more delay...
TRTS also activates before the "delay resolved" call is answered, which can create a confusing stuck situation, if there's many phone calls and you don't notice the delay resolved call, so the train won't move after clearing the signal for the TRTS.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 15:03 #141481
Stephen Fulcher
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In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 16:36 #141482
bugsy
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Stephen Fulcher in post 141481 said:
In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?

Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate.
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 16:43 #141483
JamesN
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bugsy in post 141482 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 141481 said:
In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?
It’s more that platform staff end up under pressure to minimise delays and so on, so they just don’t always checks.

Classic example I’ve seen regularly is TRTS being pushed for trains at Reading that haven’t even fully stopped in the platform yet - never mind any unforeseen crew change issues or similar.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 17:35 #141484
jc92
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JamesN in post 141483 said:
bugsy in post 141482 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 141481 said:
In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?
It’s more that platform staff end up under pressure to minimise delays and so on, so they just don’t always checks.

Classic example I’ve seen regularly is TRTS being pushed for trains at Reading that haven’t even fully stopped in the platform yet - never mind any unforeseen crew change issues or similar.
Same at Sheffield, plunger goes as the train enters the platform.

The other day I saw a driver turn up for a northern unit, hit the TRTS on his way down the platform, then get a phone call to say he didn't have a guard...

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 18:23 #141485
officer dibble
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JamesN in post 141483 said:
bugsy in post 141482 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 141481 said:
In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?
It’s more that platform staff end up under pressure to minimise delays and so on, so they just don’t always checks.

Classic example I’ve seen regularly is TRTS being pushed for trains at Reading that haven’t even fully stopped in the platform yet - never mind any unforeseen crew change issues or similar.
Don't get me started on that! Happening too much lately, as are the calls from TVSC to express their dismay at the staff doing it......

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 08/09/2021 at 20:54 #141487
9pN1SEAp
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SimSig also doesn't quite simulate what happened to 2H93 at Carlisle today...

After joining two 3-car 158/79s in a shunt move (previous service didn't depart due to S&C line obstructed & driver out of hours), driver finally got the road after waiting for about 40 minutes, did his brake test... and promptly had to get the signal replaced!

Jamie S (JAMS)
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 09/09/2021 at 15:53 #141495
Gwasanaethau
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JamesN in post 141483 said:
bugsy in post 141482 said:
Stephen Fulcher in post 141481 said:
In reality, TRTS will often have little-to-no resemblance to the reality of the readiness of a train to move, it is often pressed by platform staff when trains aren’t ready, I’ve seen it done when the train wasn’t running and had neither a guard or driver on board.
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?
It’s more that platform staff end up under pressure to minimise delays and so on, so they just don’t always checks.

Classic example I’ve seen regularly is TRTS being pushed for trains at Reading that haven’t even fully stopped in the platform yet - never mind any unforeseen crew change issues or similar.
There is a (potentially apocryphal) story about the staff at Brighton having done this regularly a good few years back.
– TRTS gets pressed early on platform 2
– Signaller sets the route towards Hove
– Driver for aforementioned train on platform 2 arrives at the Lover's Walk side of the foot crossing unable to cross…

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 10/09/2021 at 00:18 #141503
kaiwhara
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Oh it's very easy to believe actually, as it happens all the bloody time. It used to drive me nuts in Auckland!

bugsy in post 141482 said:
I find this hard to believe. Is it because some platform staff don't understand what the TRTS button is actually for?

Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait!
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 13:42 #145756
Guts
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Any feedback on this request from Geoff or developers?
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 13:59 #145757
ajax103
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Also TRTS works even when the track circuits are NOT occupied by a train.
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 14:53 #145758
jc92
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ajax103 in post 145757 said:
Also TRTS works even when the track circuits are NOT occupied by a train.
Whether thats prototypical will completely depend on the location I suspect.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 15:40 #145759
Dionysusnu
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jc92 in post 145758 said:
ajax103 in post 145757 said:
Also TRTS works even when the track circuits are NOT occupied by a train.
Whether thats prototypical will completely depend on the location I suspect.
SimSig seems to model this as well. On King's Cross, all the platform starters will TRTS regardless of the track circuit occupancy. But for example S160 on Exeter will only TRTS if platform 1 is actually occupied. The TRTS deactivates if the track circuit clears while TRTS is still active.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 16:03 #145760
headshot119
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Guts in post 145756 said:
Any feedback on this request from Geoff or developers?
It's not a feature we're looking to change, whether it reflects real life practice very much depends on the location, the rules in force at the time, and TOC/FOC instructions to staff.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 16:05 #145761
headshot119
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ajax103 in post 145757 said:
Also TRTS works even when the track circuits are NOT occupied by a train.
This will vary by location, either can be the case.

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 16/03/2022 at 17:02 #145762
GeoffM
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I agree with Karl on both counts. There is so much variation on the railway that saying something is wrong at location X because location Y does it differently simply isn't reliable - both TRTS and delays.
SimSig Boss
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 14:17 #145767
Guts
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headshot119 in post 145760 said:
Guts in post 145756 said:
Any feedback on this request from Geoff or developers?
It's not a feature we're looking to change, whether it reflects real life practice very much depends on the location, the rules in force at the time, and TOC/FOC instructions to staff.
No offence, but which companies are you talking about in regards to making phones before they depart after a delay?? I work with 4 different TOC's and 5 FOC's (inclduing ROG and Devon and Cornwall) who don't call you on departure after a delay when the signal is showing a proceed aspect; and my mate is a driver with SW Trains and he doesn't call either unless the signal is at danger.
Trains only call you if the signal is at danger and they are ready to depart.

In terms of Gameplay on the Sim, it's an extra unrequired phone call.

There was another post this week about driver changes not having to receive phone calls, surely this could also be an option on train delay calls. (NB. All drivers call us early or late when relieving a train (crew relief), due to different places of relief due to operational reasons)

Surely a call to tell you the train is ready to depart while the signal is already showing a proceed aspect is an unrequired call.
No driver is going to call you on a proceed aspect unless the signal needs to be returned to danger as there is ongoing problems; they literally want to get to their destination and finish the run or their day.
They're not going to stand there waiting for a signalman to answer their call before they depart (as happens on the Sim).

It's much more prototypical to only receive a call if there is further problem.

If you actually know of a location or company where driver must call the signaller before departure, I'd love to know this/these locations. (Me being nosey)
In my all yrs of signalling, and I've been to numerous boxes across the country including Victoria, Three Bridges and Doncaster, which are all busy, and never seen or heard calls from drivers before departure, only on delay and/or cause of delay, ie. "Sorry Bobby, got a door fault, I'll have a check and I should be on the move shortly".

Imagine how many calls TBASC would get before departure from people holding doors, IRLife, just as an example. #justsaying

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 14:27 #145768
Guts
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GeoffM in post 145762 said:
I agree with Karl on both counts. There is so much variation on the railway that saying something is wrong at location X because location Y does it differently simply isn't reliable - both TRTS and delays.
Surely drivers in this forum could have an opinion.

For me personally Geoff when on big/multiple hosts/chains, it's a pain to have to answer that call to get the job moving, when the signal is already showing proceed and the job is all snarled up or at a stand behind that train. It might be the 5th call in the list, while the 4 calls before are train standing behind it.

I completely understand there are programming implications and we all appreciate the work you and the developers do, I just feel it's better realism and gets the job going quicker which in turn helps everyone playing the Sim.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 14:58 #145769
TUT
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I've had a phone call from a driver telling me that he'd fixed a problem I never knew he had!

He was a little bit overtime in the section, nothing serious, though my barriers were down, and he just rang to say that he'd had a problem with his train computer but it was all fixed and he'd be on the move again shortly.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 15:10 #145770
DriverCurran
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Just a former driver adding two pennies worth.... (as you asked for a driver to contribute!!)

When I was driving if I had been delayed by say a fault or a disturbance I had to make contact with the signaller in charge before making any onward movement, why I may hear you say? Well to make sure that the relevant details were passed. Let us say that I had a passcomm operated, during the the initial radio call I would state that I was driving from unit 465800 coach 79000 and the passcomm was in the sixth coach from the front. From that initial phone call have I given everything my control needs to complete a fully comprehensive log entry for the incident, so do they know :-

The exact unit and coach number where the passcomm was operated?
Was the passcomm accidental? malicious? due to a customer collapsed?
Have I had to operate any safety system isolation equipment?

If the answer to any of these questions is unknown at the time of the time of the initial radio call (I'll give you a tiny hint.... The answer to all of these will be unknown prior to me investigating) then I will be needing to make a further call to provide all the above details following my investigation.

How do I know that you as the signaller are not going to need to give me a more restrictive aspect, for all I know you might have abandoned an attempt to contact me 5 seconds before I enter back into the cab. Now what I had as a green signal at the start of the incident is now a yellow and because I know you want me to just get on and go with no further communication, I fail to observe the new more restrictive aspect away I go, come round the corner and 10 yards in front of me at line speed (Remember the last thing of saw of that previous signal in my haste to keep you as the signaller happy by just getting going so you don't have an extra call to answer) is a nice big fat juicy red aspect. I now have a SPAD on my record (the red having been given in sufficient time before going past the yellow, not seen as I'm getting on with just going).

As a driver in the real world am I going to make a phone call, and await the signaller to answer (even if there are 15 other calls ahead of me) too right I am, be it the first train of my shift or the last station stop on the last train of my shift....

Ok this might be a fivers worth rather than pennies worth but you get the idea.

Paul

You have to get a red before you can get any other colour
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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 16:17 #145771
Guts
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DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
Just a former driver adding two pennies worth.... (as you asked for a driver to contribute!!)

When I was driving if I had been delayed by say a fault or a disturbance I had to make contact with the signaller in charge before making any onward movement, why I may hear you say? Well to make sure that the relevant details were passed. Let us say that I had a passcomm operated, during the the initial radio call I would state that I was driving from unit 465800 coach 79000 and the passcomm was in the sixth coach from the front. From that initial phone call have I given everything my control needs to complete a fully comprehensive log entry for the incident, so do they know :-

The exact unit and coach number where the passcomm was operated?
Was the passcomm accidental? malicious? due to a customer collapsed?
Have I had to operate any safety system isolation equipment?

If the answer to any of these questions is unknown at the time of the time of the initial radio call (I'll give you a tiny hint.... The answer to all of these will be unknown prior to me investigating) then I will be needing to make a further call to provide all the above details following my investigation.
Agreed. The driver will tell you theres an issue and where (if known) in the initial call (as per the Sim). Which is the same as the further call we receive if there is extra delays.

My issue isn't the extra call, it's the train not departing until the call is answered.

I hope this is the message I'm trying to get across, it's not the call before departure, it's the train not departing until the call is answered.

DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
How do I know that you as the signaller are not going to need to give me a more restrictive aspect, for all I know you might have abandoned an attempt to contact me 5 seconds before I enter back into the cab. Now what I had as a green signal at the start of the incident is now a yellow and because I know you want me to just get on and go with no further communication, I fail to observe the new more restrictive aspect away I go, come round the corner and 10 yards in front of me at line speed (Remember the last thing of saw of that previous signal in my haste to keep you as the signaller happy by just getting going so you don't have an extra call to answer) is a nice big fat juicy red aspect. I now have a SPAD on my record (the red having been given in sufficient time before going past the yellow, not seen as I'm getting on with just going).
Whoa Whoa. I'm sorry but that's against the Rule Book to put the signal back on a train without speaking to the Driver first; I'd filling out a RT3185 form if I did that, plus a incident report for Control, then a talk from my manager regarding the incident.
We're just not allowed to do it unless in an emergency, which in any case would warrant a call to the signaller to find out why there is a change in aspect (as per the Sim).
If we need the signal back before you depart, then you'll get a Contact Signaller on the GSMR or a GSMR call or we'll contact your Control.

DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
As a driver in the real world am I going to make a phone call, and await the signaller to answer (even if there are 15 other calls ahead of me) too right I am, be it the first train of my shift or the last station stop on the last train of my shift....

Ok this might be a fivers worth rather than pennies worth but you get the idea.

Paul
Thanks for this though. You might be the only driver I know that specifically does that. I do get drivers call with all the details of an incident but that's it unless there is further problems, as long as the signal is proceed they move off once it's cleared, and that's DOO and Conductor staffed services.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 17/03/2022 at 18:07 #145773
Guts
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TUT in post 145769 said:
I've had a phone call from a driver telling me that he'd fixed a problem I never knew he had!

He was a little bit overtime in the section, nothing serious, though my barriers were down, and he just rang to say that he'd had a problem with his train computer but it was all fixed and he'd be on the move again shortly.
I've had this too, I'm looking thinking why isn't it moving and they pull away and then tell you why it was delayed.

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A current feature that isn't prototypical 19/03/2022 at 14:21 #145786
ajax103
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Guts in post 145771 said:
DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
Just a former driver adding two pennies worth.... (as you asked for a driver to contribute!!)

When I was driving if I had been delayed by say a fault or a disturbance I had to make contact with the signaller in charge before making any onward movement, why I may hear you say? Well to make sure that the relevant details were passed. Let us say that I had a passcomm operated, during the the initial radio call I would state that I was driving from unit 465800 coach 79000 and the passcomm was in the sixth coach from the front. From that initial phone call have I given everything my control needs to complete a fully comprehensive log entry for the incident, so do they know :-

The exact unit and coach number where the passcomm was operated?
Was the passcomm accidental? malicious? due to a customer collapsed?
Have I had to operate any safety system isolation equipment?

If the answer to any of these questions is unknown at the time of the time of the initial radio call (I'll give you a tiny hint.... The answer to all of these will be unknown prior to me investigating) then I will be needing to make a further call to provide all the above details following my investigation.
Agreed. The driver will tell you theres an issue and where (if known) in the initial call (as per the Sim). Which is the same as the further call we receive if there is extra delays.

My issue isn't the extra call, it's the train not departing until the call is answered.

I hope this is the message I'm trying to get across, it's not the call before departure, it's the train not departing until the call is answered.

DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
How do I know that you as the signaller are not going to need to give me a more restrictive aspect, for all I know you might have abandoned an attempt to contact me 5 seconds before I enter back into the cab. Now what I had as a green signal at the start of the incident is now a yellow and because I know you want me to just get on and go with no further communication, I fail to observe the new more restrictive aspect away I go, come round the corner and 10 yards in front of me at line speed (Remember the last thing of saw of that previous signal in my haste to keep you as the signaller happy by just getting going so you don't have an extra call to answer) is a nice big fat juicy red aspect. I now have a SPAD on my record (the red having been given in sufficient time before going past the yellow, not seen as I'm getting on with just going).
Whoa Whoa. I'm sorry but that's against the Rule Book to put the signal back on a train without speaking to the Driver first; I'd filling out a RT3185 form if I did that, plus a incident report for Control, then a talk from my manager regarding the incident.
We're just not allowed to do it unless in an emergency, which in any case would warrant a call to the signaller to find out why there is a change in aspect (as per the Sim).
If we need the signal back before you depart, then you'll get a Contact Signaller on the GSMR or a GSMR call or we'll contact your Control.

DriverCurran in post 145770 said:
As a driver in the real world am I going to make a phone call, and await the signaller to answer (even if there are 15 other calls ahead of me) too right I am, be it the first train of my shift or the last station stop on the last train of my shift....

Ok this might be a fivers worth rather than pennies worth but you get the idea.

Paul
Thanks for this though. You might be the only driver I know that specifically does that. I do get drivers call with all the details of an incident but that's it unless there is further problems, as long as the signal is proceed they move off once it's cleared, and that's DOO and Conductor staffed services.
Also to point out that the signaller will also ask the platform staff to confirm is the driver in the cab and is it safe to put back the signal (if the driver is in the messroom with their feet up then it's fine) or the signaller will ask the platform staff to contact the signaller.

Both I've seen plenty of times at more then one station on the ECML.

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