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Conflicting routes at Westhoughton

You are here: Home > Forum > Simulations > Released > Manchester Piccadilly > Conflicting routes at Westhoughton

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Conflicting routes at Westhoughton 14/10/2021 at 08:49 #141856
123 posts
In the saved game I have an up train, 2h80, in Westhoughton station. There are no signals between its current location and signal 648 but there is a trailing crossover. I have been able to take control of the Westhoughton ground frame, reverse the crossover and handsignal 6P82 towards 648.
There seems to be a location problem here as trains from Crows Nest requiring to reverse over the crossover stop short and have to be manually reversed, allowed to run for such a time that their speed for a class 6 can reach 50mph before being manually reversed again to wait behind GF5042D.

Update: as expected, allowing the sim to continue in this state causes 2H80 to find that the points are set against it.

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Last edited: 14/10/2021 at 08:54 by trolleybus
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Conflicting routes at Westhoughton 14/10/2021 at 14:16 #141858
4374 posts
On the first part, there's already a two minute timer between releasing the crossover and being able to reverse the release lever on the ground frame. Without referencing the control tables it's not an unheard of situation, especially for crossover ground frames.

Have you got an example of a train which comes from Crow Nest Junction which needs to use the groundframe?

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Conflicting routes at Westhoughton 14/10/2021 at 17:44 #141861
123 posts
I think the reversals from up to down at Westhoughton are working correctly. Train 6P82 arrives at an extremely busy time of day and I had my hands full with the fallout of a train I'd managed to stop on the up fast at Longsight for several minutes, so I'd turned the clock down to slowest. I'd guessed there might be a timeout in operation but this ground frame isn't documented.
But the arrangements still seem odd to me for a couple of reasons although I know that doesn't mean that SimSig has got it wrong. The first thing is that the releases can be requested (i.e. the roundels clicked) at any time, immediately replacing the protecting auto signal(s). This can, of course, initiate a nasty moment for any train driver that happens to be approaching one of the signals concerned but can be avoided by not requesting the release if a train is approaching, holding 643 and/or 802 at danger or using the emergency replacement on 650 if required. OK, I can understand that.
But I really don't get the crossover situation. In the example I opened this thread with there was a train reversing at Westhoughton on the down. It's perfectly possible that a train is just passing signal 650 as the release for the crossover is requested. The signaller shouldn't do that but nothing prevents it. The timeout has started and the ground frame can't yet be freed, but it seems to be quite a long way from 650 to the ground frame, so if the train becomes delayed for some reason it may have yet to arrive when the frame is unlocked, allowing the crossover to be swung and the train on the down to move across into the path of the train arriving from 650. It just seems odd to me on a fully detected passenger line that the crossover can be worked even if an up train is in the platform at Westhoughton station or is between Westhoughton and 648. I suppose it relies on the shunter seeing such a train, but if the train were to stop just beyond 650 (e.g. after passcom activation) the shunter may not know there was a train coming unless they'd somehow been informed by the bobby.

Last edited: 14/10/2021 at 17:56 by trolleybus
Reason: None given

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Conflicting routes at Westhoughton 14/10/2021 at 18:07 #141864
5833 posts
649 and 650 are semi-automatic signals and releasing the ground frame to start a 2 minute (or more) timer is standard. It's just like pulling a route elsewhere - you don't generally want to do it if a train is on the approach.

Once a train has passed the protecting signal, and before it is clear of the crossover, yes the GF should not be able to be released. Mantis 34884 for that.

SimSig Boss
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The following user said thank you: trolleybus