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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 14/11/2022 at 04:49 #148727 | |
drew
69 posts |
I’ve been merrily timetabling away, hats off to anyone who has actually seen a timetable through to completion, and I’ve got some questions. Paths that validated OK in the timetable editor haven’t done what I expected in testing, and I’m not always sure why. Admittedly I may be trying to do things that the creators weren’t intending, but I’ll throw some examples out and see if anyone has any helpful insights. Harden: I’d like to refuge trains on the up goods loop. Don’t know how long it is, the loop length in the manual seems to be standing room on the up main, not in the loop. If I timetable a down train to stop at Harden, platform UG, and set the road from HN19 to HN27, the Driver challenges the road, requiring to stop at Harden. Is Harden UG not the up goods loop, is there a way to successfully table a train into there and have it take the road? Cootamundra: I want a down train to take the down refuge at Coota so that another train can overtake. I’ve tabled it to stop at Cootamundra, platform DR, and again the driver challenges the road at CA27, requiring to stop at Cootamundra. How do you successfully table a train into the down refuge? Goulburn: I’d like to have a freight train arrive at Goulburn platform 3, wait for crew relief and a cross, and then depart through frame N. Timetable path validates, but the driver gets antsy in the yard, doesn’t recognise P3 as Goulburn. In all of these issues, I recognise that the Sim has particular locations, connected in particular ways that are not always immediately obvious. Is there a map of locations showing the way they all connect? It would be beneficial for timetable creation. It would be nice to learn if what I’m attempting is possible, if the Sim is incomplete, or is it just me interpreting its nuances badly. Thanks. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 14/11/2022 at 10:54 #148728 | |
bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 148727 said:I’ve been merrily timetabling away, hats off to anyone who has actually seen a timetable through to completion, and I’ve got some questions. Paths that validated OK in the timetable editor haven’t done what I expected in testing, and I’m not always sure why. Admittedly I may be trying to do things that the creators weren’t intending, but I’ll throw some examples out and see if anyone has any helpful insights.Have you tried ticking 'through line stop' ? That driver complaint sounds like the one you get for trying to stop on a non-platform line. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 14/11/2022 at 11:25 #148729 | |
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drew
69 posts |
No, I haven’t tried that, but I will. It could be that simple. It’s great to be able to ask and get helpful replies. Thanks for the tip. When I try it, I’ll report back.
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 15/11/2022 at 11:13 #148752 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Yep, you were right, adding Thru line stop solved the Harden and Cootamundra issues. Things are looking up.
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 15/11/2022 at 16:09 #148755 | |
flabberdacks
582 posts |
Mantis 36981 logged for the Goulburn problem you're having. Thanks for letting us know.
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 17/11/2022 at 07:24 #148791 | |
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drew
69 posts |
I’ve found a couple more interesting undocumented features. Again, these are just as likely to me doing something unexpected as actual problems. Moss Vale up refuge I put my 361m long train away in the up refuge on the Up, to let another Up train overtake (Thru Line stop, works like a charm). The manual has the Moss Vale up refuge listed as 380m. When my train pulls up, the back is still hanging out. Hmmm. Tried coaxing it forwards, tried abandoning the TT to see if it would move up a bit. Nope, still foul at the back. Tried shortening it in stages. 340m, it fit. Does it require a “stop at far end” instruction to get it right up on MV62, or is the up refuge not as long as advertised? Not registering passing passing stations I’ve seen this with several trains in several locations. For example, up trains that start out of Goulburn down yard (N). They require extra passing points at Towrang, Lyndhurst, Marulan, and Medway Jn, over and above what a train that passes through Goulburn on the main line does. I’ve got a bunch of these trains through the TT, but some of them don’t register passing Towrang, and will keep on traveling with Towrang next on the list until I manually edit to the correct next stop, at which point they tick them off just fine. I get a similar thing with up passenger trains that stop Harden - Yass Junction. They have passing times for Galong, Binalong, and Bowning, but they don’t update their location as they pass those stations. The train stops at Yass Jn, the shows stopped at Galong, awaiting right-away at Galong, departed Galong X late, Stopped at Binalong, awaiting right-away… etc, until it catches up to the actual location at Yass Jn. It then departs and proceeds normally. Weird. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 17/11/2022 at 08:22 #148792 | |
Meld
1098 posts |
Moss Vale up refuge - try a far end stop if that doesnt fit then go for far end exact. Goulburn Dn Yd should be ok stepping Towrang Lynwood Medway Jn see 2192 in supplied TT Passenger wise suggest you look at ST22/24. You dont need the passing times between Harden and Yass Jn & v.v. The supplied timetable should give you plenty of clues as to what works and what doesn't HTH Passed the age to be doing 'Spoon Feeding' !!! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 17/11/2022 at 10:08 #148793 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Thanks, I’ll give far end / far end exact a try. I have checked out the supplied timetable, including 2192, pretty sure I ended up with the same timing points but will check again for any differences. I copied the passing stations from whatever was in the published SWTT and they usually work. Happy to delete passing stations if it solves the problem. It’s just curious how the freights in front and behind tick off the Galongs and Binalongs quite happily but the pass saves them up and then cycles through them at Yass Jn. But I’ll go with what works. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 17/11/2022 at 10:43 #148794 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 148791 said:I’ve found a couple more interesting undocumented features. Again, these are just as likely to me doing something unexpected as actual problems.drew in post 148791 said: Locations in Simsig are either 'Key' or 'normal / minor' All timetables need to use the key locations, which are in UK terms are at least the mandatory timing points in working timetables. When using 'normal/minor' locations like wayside stations or sidings you may need to add other 'normal/minor' locations until back at a 'key' one. Much depends on how the locations are set up / linked internally. So if a line has key locations A B C, and 'normal/minor' 1,2,3.... in between arranged as: A 1 2 3 4 B 5 6 7 8 C a simple through timetable of A - B - C is happy a timetable to stop at '3' might be happy with: A - 3 - B - C or else need A - 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - B - C (if 3 only links to 2 & 4) Hope that helps Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 18/11/2022 at 01:20 #148814 | |
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drew
69 posts |
bill_gensheet in post 148794 said:drew in post 148791 said:Yeah that helps, it that makes sense in light of my experience with trying to get the TT editor to validate a given timetable path. Main line Goulburn on the up is happy with Marulan as the next location, but leaving Goulburn down yard (N) invokes Towrang, Lyndhurst, and Medway Jn.Locations in Simsig are either 'Key' or 'normal / minor' I've compared my efforts with the supplied 4.3 TT and the only difference in the path seems to be I've got Towrang, Lyndhurst, Marulan, Medway Jn, Wingello, and the 4.3 has the same but omits Marulan. I can ditch Marulan, match the 4.3, and hope that solves it. A map of all the connections would be handy, but it would probably excessively laborious to produce one, for limited appeal. I'll be happy just getting a functional TT. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 18/11/2022 at 01:37 #148816 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Meld in post 148792 said:Moss Vale up refuge - try a far end stop if that doesnt fit then go for far end exact.With Moss Vale up refuge, I've tried both far end stop, and far end exact with zero variance. Both still have the rear hanging out. From far end exact I tried shortening metre by metre with the train at a stand in the refuge and the magic number is 348m. I'm not sure if the result would be different shortening the train before it arrives, ie does it shorten from the back or from both ends at once when it's stopped? But yeah, the surveyors seem to have run off with a chunk of refuge and I don't know if we'll get it back. I love refuging trains, the 380m would be nice to have. I suppose we could try backing in from HS2, wonder if we'd get the advertised 440m? Regarding the Harden - Yass Jn passing points, yeah, I had a look and I think I'll copy ST22 and ditch the intermediates. I note that ST22 has plenty of intermediate passing locations north of Goulburn without issues. I guess it's local problem. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 18/11/2022 at 03:43 #148820 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Tried backing an up train (same 361m one as previously) into Moss Vale up refuge. It's possible, but messy and mostly pointless. You can't path from Moss Vale to Rev at HS2, so you have to go to Moss Vale Jn and reverse there (on the up main in my case). It's quite a ways past the up refuge, but OK. The train asks permission to set back, which is OK. You have to manually set and lock the points back into the up refuge, and have HS2 off. The train sets back to the buffer stop, by which point it is in clear of MV62, so OK. Unfortunately, the crossover from the country end of the refuge back to the main line isn't detected (track circuit spill over all routes) and I can't clear MV84. So it's messy and unsatisfying all round.
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 28/11/2022 at 10:39 #149034 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Harden Up Goods Loop In a similar vein to Moss Vale up refuge, I’ve experimented with Harden Up Goods Loop to determine the standing room. The sim manual and ARTC think it’s in the vicinity of 627m between HN22 & HN27. I started by tabling a 400-odd metre train into the goods loop from the country end, with far end exact as the stopping point. It obviously should have fit with several hundred metres to spare, if the sim matched the published figures. The train pulled up with the back hanging way out on the main line (which I expected from previous attempts). Shortened it in stages. Once I thought I might be getting close I went a metre at a time. Patience is a virtue of course. The actual effective length of the Harden Goods loop is 98 metres. That’s a bit of a loss from 627. What went wrong there? The default timetable doesn’t use it, and current day trains are mostly longer than that anyway, so it’s not an issue. I’m doing an earlier era timetable, where just about everything is shorter than 627m, and trains cross and pass each other at Harden. My “get out of gaol free” card is to disappear trains into GF C, then re-enter them again. Always GF C (I keep thinking global financial crisis, but I’m a bit weird), because GF B has issues too… Harden GF B pathing I can timetable a down train into Harden ground frame B, and the timetable validates. Haven’t convinced a train to actually take the route yet. It’s like with my earlier ignorance of the Thru line stop, the trains jack up at HN19 and won’t go into the sidings. Do you need Thru line ticked for exit points? Coming out of GF B is even weirder. GF B is available as an entry point, but when you try and validate to any other point, there are no available connections up or down from GF B. So yeah, I can’t use the advertised 627m (loooxury!), and I can only cheat at the one end. Last edited: 28/11/2022 at 10:39 by drew Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 28/11/2022 at 15:26 #149038 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 149034 said:Harden Up Goods Loop Down through line TC is 627m, TC in loop set to 100m - looks like a sim bug with the track left at default length as the distance via the loop does not match down main drew in post 149034 said: Harden Up Goods LoopThru line should not be needed. Down timetable may only work in error, to try out I used: Galong Harden Harden rev @ SIG 19/21 Harden GFB Operating seems to need (and this may be Aussie rules) the GF operated first, then clear HN19, and then the train moves up to the handsignal, give that and it exits OK UK would not clear the signal with the GF free, unless the GF also slotted the signal drew in post 149034 said: Harden Up Goods LoopEntries and exits are separate 'locations'. Lack of 'next' locations from an entry is a sim bug. I have not raised Mantis, can someone more familiar with Aussie check this out ? Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 29/11/2022 at 17:51 #149052 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
Mantis 37141 (length) and Mantis 37142 (entry point paths) raised
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 01/12/2022 at 02:35 #149075 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Sorry I keep finding problems, thanks for putting them into the ticket system. I've got another one: Galong Galong seems to have issues. As we've seen previously, it doesn't work as a passing location. The train can pass through, but it's location won't update on doing so. Unfortunately, Galong is a necessary pathing point if we want to use Cunningar or Galong sidings. Both have grain silos that could be shunted. I've tried to get a train to stop at Galong on the up, to detach the loco and visit the siding, then shunt back and re-attach. Naturally it sailed through and kept going. Tried Thru Line stop ticked, and not. In another attempt I tried to get the up train to pull up at Galong Frame D reverse point, and back into the siding. Because it doesn't register passing Galong the train tried to keep going. I manually updated the train's location once it passed Galong and it stopped and shunted to the siding at Frame D as planned. Cunningar siding's issue will be that it needs Galong as the next location on the up. I haven't tried but I expect the train would shunt there OK, but the Galong missed passing location will cause trouble up the line unless manually corrected. These are activites not required in the default timetable, but they could realistically be included in future (or past era) timetables. Not a deal breaker, but it would be nice to have them work correctly. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 03/12/2022 at 12:53 #149109 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 149075 said:Confirmed, up line Galong does not report location Rest as you note is a consequence of this. You can manually advance of location to 'Galong GF D (rev)' any time, say when the train is between Harden and Galong, no need to wait. Mantis 37175 Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 03/12/2022 at 13:00 #149110 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 149075 said:"Thru Line stop" is for a specific situation. Would not help here. It prevents a train with a stop at 'X' from calling up wrong route when sent via a line at X that is not coded as 'permitted stopping location' In passenger terms a platform, but lines such as goods loops will usually be set as a 'permitted stop' as well. Thru Line stop is really only needed for station through fast lines where a train might crew change or need to wait time. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 05/12/2022 at 00:22 #149153 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Meld in post 148792 said:Goulburn Dn Yd should be ok stepping Towrang Lynwood Medway Jn see 2192 in supplied TTI thought that by matching the passing stations to 2192 I had this one fixed, but apparently not. Once I'd finished editing and did another run through, the Goulburn Down Yard Nth to Towrang missed stops problem persists. I've got the same stops as 2192. I've tried matching the train characteristics, tried adding a UID, tried renumbering (my first train doing this move is 3122), in case it was some kind of legacy UK headcode thing. Tried other weird things like making Towrang a regulating stop, nah, not happening. I'm out of ideas. Have to have Towrang etc to get a valid path. It worked for 2192 in the default TT. Not sure if it still works for 2192, I haven't run the default TT through for a couple of months. Any suggestions? Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 05/12/2022 at 07:58 #149155 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Cootamundra South Fork I've got a train entering at Cootamundra Down Yard Nth, heading for Milvale via the South Fork and Coota West. It loses track circuit occupancy on the South Fork between CA31 and CA21. It's still on the train list at this point, saying it's stopped at Coota West. It then calls and asks for permission to proceed, as if it were at an unsignalled location, and when granted it accelerates and then leaves the train list. Gone! Bermuda Triangle stuff. Log in to reply |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 05/12/2022 at 11:58 #149156 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 149153 said:Meld in post 148792 said:Confirm 2192 also does not step locations. Remains thinking it is just out of Goulburn and 'looking' for Towrang.Goulburn Dn Yd should be ok stepping Towrang Lynwood Medway Jn see 2192 in supplied TTI thought that by matching the passing stations to 2192 I had this one fixed, but apparently not. Once I'd finished editing and did another run through, the Goulburn Down Yard Nth to Towrang missed stops problem persists. As 2192 simply runs on off sim with no stops or activities the bug is not obvious. Mantis 37203 Post has attachments. Log in to view them. Last edited: 05/12/2022 at 12:18 by bill_gensheet Reason: Add mantis ref Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 05/12/2022 at 12:47 #149157 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
drew in post 149155 said:Cootamundra South ForkCannot replicate this one. Suggest you extract the problem train as a one train timetable, test that again, and then post a save with that timetable. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 06/12/2022 at 11:12 #149165 | |
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drew
69 posts |
See if this works. Save starts a few minutes before the train enters. For me, it makes it onto the south fork, and then it disappears. Doesn't seem to matter how much road it has clear when it gets there. Hopefully it performs its trick for others.
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| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 06/12/2022 at 12:19 #149166 | |
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bill_gensheet
1318 posts |
Yes that shows the issue. The difference appears to be the Cootamundra West stop that you have. Passing or no time runs through OK. Cootamundra West is not a required timing point Sequence is: Train passes South Fork. (up direction travel) Stops at CA21 (up direction travel) Thinks it is at Cootamundra West If it really was at Cootamundra West it would now be travelling down direction Changes to down direction Reverses and TC occupation vanishes, although train is left in the train list The cause is clearer with a short train (eg 20m). The 474m train still has the rear in the yard, hence the rapid exit. Mantis 37209 There is also something odd about CA21 - CA24, but that may be local rules. I got a train stuck at CA21, route set forward but signal R. Signal only went G when I made the train shunt forwards to less than 20m from the TC end. Last edited: 06/12/2022 at 12:48 by bill_gensheet Reason: None given Log in to reply The following user said thank you: drew |
| Timetable pathing issues (several, various). 06/12/2022 at 23:04 #149177 | |
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drew
69 posts |
Thank you, it's great to have that confirmed. Given a choice of not stopping at Coota West, or having the train disappear, I think I'll keep it moving from now on. Coota West is a bit limiting in the Sim as to where it thinks the trains should stop. Up trains will stop at CA22, which is fine. Down trains stop at CA19 or CA21, so not actually in the vicinity of the platform. I've got one on the down which comes off the main line at the North Fork which I'd like to stop at Coota West, but at CA19 the back end is still on the main line. It would be nice to have the option to pull up at the starter, CA23 (and thus the platform). That 3013 fits between CA22 & CA23. I suspect the current design may be more about not blocking the Yass Rd level crossing. I'm not complaining, just musing. Log in to reply |