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| Greek Train Disaster 01/03/2023 at 17:08 #150703 | |
bugsy
1696 posts |
I'm sure that everybody will be aware of this incident. As a matter of interest, I'd like to know what sort of signalling system they have which would allow such an event to ocurr? Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 01/03/2023 at 17:35 #150704 | |
pedroathome
887 posts |
I'm sure an admin will be around to clarify this, however, users should not use the forum to speculate on the causes or potential causes of an accident. I don't know how things work in Greece, however, I'm sure that they will have their own accident branch that will release an official report in time
Log in to reply The following users said thank you: bri2808, i26, Hap, postal |
| Greek Train Disaster 01/03/2023 at 20:05 #150705 | |
Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64813367 This article has some information, albeit mostly speculation at this stage. I do not know what systems are used in Greece. Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 02/03/2023 at 09:04 #150708 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
The Guardian's report: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/mar/01/greece-train-crash-an-unimaginable-tragedy-as-death-toll-likely-to-rise In particular, the union leader's comment: "It’s not possible that a stationmaster should [have to] talk to another stationmaster. Everything should be a little more automated.” suggests telephone block; his own position (a 'pointsman' ) may point to a lack of interlocking, but I wouldn't read too much into it as French signal operators are mainly referred to as 'aiguilleurs' (aiguilles are points) with only those having block responsibilities (ironically mainly the secondary lines) being 'gardes signaux' and French railways are, of course, interlocked. Also reported is that the 'stationmaster' at Larissa has been arrested and "...charged with involuntary manslaughter and unintentionally causing mass grievous bodily harm". (Again we shouldn't assume the job title makes it the same job as it would be in the UK; I believe 'stationmasters' in many European countries are in fact senior signal operators having block responsibilities as well as directing the work of subsidiary signalboxes at their station.) But it would therefore appear the immediate cause has been identified. More widely, we see huge understaffing (750 posts filled of an establishment of 2100 according to the Guardian). I think it's hardly speculating to say I see the spectre of Clapham. More immediately, I think any railwayman's heart goes out to all those involved, certainly the dead and injured but also those colleagues who have to be involved in rescue and restoration or whose mistake - often trivial - led to such a terrible tragedy. Last edited: 02/03/2023 at 09:09 by kbarber Reason: None given Log in to reply The following users said thank you: elltrain3, flabberdacks, JWNoctis |
| Greek Train Disaster 02/03/2023 at 21:51 #150715 | |
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bugsy
1696 posts |
pedroathome in post 150704 said:I'm sure an admin will be around to clarify this, however, users should not use the forum to speculate on the causes or potential causes of an accident. I don't know how things work in Greece, however, I'm sure that they will have their own accident branch that will release an official report in timeI should have made my question clearer. I was merely asking about the signalling system used. I wasn't asking for members to speculate on the causes of the accident. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Last edited: 03/03/2023 at 08:20 by bugsy Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 03/03/2023 at 10:13 #150716 | |
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OfflineWork
2 posts |
As I am currently a rail fan in Greece I can assure you that the Europe has provided us with the ETCS system since 2017 but due to unknown reasons it was either never installed or never used. Drivers used their radio in order to communicate with other drivers and stationmaster essentially driving "blind". In many cab ride videos on Youtube of the route, you can see signals either not being online or being red and being bypassed anyways.
Last edited: 03/03/2023 at 10:16 by OfflineWork Reason: None given Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 03/03/2023 at 11:55 #150718 | |
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bugsy
1696 posts |
OfflineWork in post 150716 said:As I am currently a rail fan in Greece I can assure you that the Europe has provided us with the ETCS system since 2017 but due to unknown reasons it was either never installed or never used. Drivers used their radio in order to communicate with other drivers and stationmaster essentially driving "blind". In many cab ride videos on Youtube of the route, you can see signals either not being online or being red and being bypassed anyways.In that case, let's hope that something is don to improve safety. Everything that you make will be useful - providing it's made of chocolate. Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 04/03/2023 at 09:56 #150728 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
OfflineWork in post 150716 said:As I am currently a rail fan in Greece I can assure you that the Europe has provided us with the ETCS system since 2017 but due to unknown reasons it was either never installed or never used. Drivers used their radio in order to communicate with other drivers and stationmaster essentially driving "blind". In many cab ride videos on Youtube of the route, you can see signals either not being online or being red and being bypassed anyways.Thank you for that. Pretty much confirms a form of 'telephone block' with no controls on signals governing entrance to sections. Reports in the Guardian now confirm the immediate cause was human error, admitted by the signaller; his lawyer is pointing to the lack of effective safety systems as an underlying cause. That lack would be the case under telephone block. My heart goes out to him; a senior man (59 years old) with a good record who made an inexplicable mistake, but who had no systemic protection whatsoever to prevent it. What an end to a blameless career. I think I've managed to localise the site in OpenRailwayMap. Also visible is the track of the former single line replaced by the obviously modern electrified double track the trains were on. All the reports say the passenger train was the one running 'wrong road' and the photos clearly show the passenger was running left-handed, close to a tunnel mouth; we must be thankful it wasn't running just 10 or 15 seconds later. OpenRailwayMap also shows a facing crossover just to the north of Larissa. Again, my sympathies to everyone involved in this catastrophe, and if things are as bad as OfflineWork suggests may it be the start of a new culture in the Greek railway system. Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 04/03/2023 at 16:22 #150732 | |
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OfflineWork
2 posts |
kbarber in post 150728 said:OfflineWork in post 150716 said:It will definitely be! Elections are approaching and such a big tragedy will surely shape a big part of them. It is very probably that after the site is cleaned, rapid works will begin on the railway system to make it better and safer although trains are going to be feared for a while here. As for the incident, most media report a wrong point. The stationmaster never intended for the train to go on the opposite direction line but after switching tracks the driver thought it was intentional and never reported it to the stationmaster. (Last part is very new and might not be confirmable yet)As I am currently a rail fan in Greece I can assure you that the Europe has provided us with the ETCS system since 2017 but due to unknown reasons it was either never installed or never used. Drivers used their radio in order to communicate with other drivers and stationmaster essentially driving "blind". In many cab ride videos on Youtube of the route, you can see signals either not being online or being red and being bypassed anyways.Thank you for that. Pretty much confirms a form of 'telephone block' with no controls on signals governing entrance to sections. Log in to reply |
| Greek Train Disaster 06/03/2023 at 11:04 #150745 | |
Soton_Speed
282 posts |
@OfflineWork - Is this article in kathimerini.gr any good? (browser translate seems to work ok for us Anglikoi) Guessing the elections are why the Government minister resigned so quickly? In Zone 6, no one can hear you scream... Log in to reply |