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| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 09:18 #151026 | |
2W34
58 posts |
Hi, a question directed at real world signallers if there are any amongst us. 1) With very late notice platform changes, what’s the process? I presume the signaller will have to inform station staff, I replicate this by editing the timetable of the train before routing into the new platform. Or is it a case of just route the train and the staff will just deal with it? 2) in IECC centres, how much are the reminder collars used on signals? I presume if there’s a problem with the signal that’s an obvious one to stop ARS routing towards it, any other examples? 3) Similarly, what’s the role of a Signalling Shift Manager? 4) is it frowned upon to be setting the route for a train over junctions very far in advance, as long as there’s no conflicts? Many thanks! Log in to reply |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 09:40 #151027 | |
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kbarber
1712 posts |
My knowledge is no longer up to date (I think Adam was still in short trousers when I finished in the box) but I can perhaps offer something on 1 and 4. Platform changes depend somewhat on the box and the staffing. In the smaller boxes I was familiar with it would always be the signalman who rang down to the station with a platform alteration. Very bad form indeed to not tell the station you were replatforming. At Waterloo, on the other hand, the Regulator would make the decision and it would either be him or one of the booking boys (in the days of the L frame) who rang the station. Within the box communication would be by calling across the operating floor. Routing over a junction would, again, depend on the box. Under absolute block you would never pull off until you had the road from the box in advance in any case, unless local instructions said otherwise (for instance St Albans South is authorised to pull off as far as Sandridge Intermediate Block Homes on the down lines as soon as a train is offered from Napsbury, with the road not being asked from Harpenden until the train is passing the box, because of the short section from Napsbury). The usual situation for pulling off early over a junction is when the next train is taking the left-most route (and has no converging routes anywhere). At Hackney Downs it was usual to set the road at Clapton Junction for a train to the Lea Valley as soon as it was the next train to reach the junction. You wouldn't set the road until the description came in from Bethnal Green though, in case BG put something for the Chingford line ahead of it (Chingford cars would be the favourite for that, with the driver usually on a finishing turn so not inclined to hang about). At very quiet times of the day you could give yourself a good deal more freedom. At Marylebone, during the early part of night turn, I'd often pull off into the platform for an up road as soon as it passed Neasden South. Alternatively, if I had something in a platform to shunt to the depot I'd wait until it had shunted or until the up road was past Canfield Place (aka Finchley Road). If there was a down road in the platform it would depend on whether the two would conflict, unless it was obvious one would be past well before the other was anywhere near. (There was no TRTS in the old Marylebone box, so we just pulled off in accordance with the timetable - which, again, could mean a long time before departure time in the quiet hours - unless someone told us otherwise.) It can probably now be told that at the other end of night shift, the signal would be left off for the first set of cars off the depot before the bobby settled down to whatever we did during the dead period (about 3 hours). The departing train usually made enough noise for us to notice it was going and stir ourselves to send a description to Neasden :-) Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 10:28 #151028 | |
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TUT
507 posts 
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Regarding reminders, typically signallers are officially taught to use them as the safety devices they are meant to be. The problem with overusing reminders, e.g. for regulating, is that you get used to whipping them off when you need to without really giving it too much thought. Which means there's barely any point putting them on in the first place if they're not gonna make you stop and think. So officially they're meant to be used for the purposes listed in the Rule Book, viz.: To prevent the operation of: • the signal protecting a route over which the normal passage of trains (or certain trains) is stopped • the signal protecting a route over which trains can pass only after the driver has been told to proceed at caution in connection with an incident, failure or unusual occurrence • any signal or level crossing equipment that is disconnected or defective • an override switch which, if operated to the override position, would clear: • a signal on which you have already placed a reminder appliance • a junction signal leading towards a line on which the normal passage of trains is stopped. • when signalling equipment or equipment at a controlled level crossing: • must not be worked, or • is to be kept in a particular position as shown in the rules, regulations and instructions. That means you're gonna be using them on any conflicting routes when passing signals at danger and when running a train which cannot be relied upon to operate track circuits, for example, and also on the points which you've set for those moves using the individual point controls. Basically any time you need to "maintain a signal at danger" you need to do that with a reminder. Wrong-direction movements would be another one. However IRL reminders do get used as a kind of brake on the ARS to stop it pulling off early or whatever. Regarding (4) I'd say that at least it's nowhere near as frowned upon as putting a few minutes into a train because you were making a brew. Although if you do get caught out and delay something by getting too far ahead of yourself, they'll care about those minutes just as much. Log in to reply The following user said thank you: 2W34 |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 14:44 #151033 | |
bugsy
1696 posts |
TUT in post 151028 said:Have I understood what you are saying here. In other words, if I place a reminder on a signal, ARS won't be able to clear it? If so, this could sometimes be useful 
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| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 19:27 #151038 | |
GeoffM
6282 posts |
bugsy in post 151033 said:TUT in post 151028 said:ARS will not (cannot) set routes to or from signals with a reminder applied. As others have said, you shouldn't be using them for regulation. Either make the train non-ARS or turn off the appropriate subarea(s).Have I understood what you are saying here. In other words, if I place a reminder on a signal, ARS won't be able to clear it? (There was a proposal 12-14 years ago, I think it was, which was to add a new "reminder" for ARS purposes only, a white background. As far as I know, it never got implemented) SimSig Boss Log in to reply The following users said thank you: 2W34, bugsy |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 19:51 #151041 | |
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2W34
58 posts |
Thank you, in particular TUT. That's what I was looking for. Trying to run SimSig realistically without the signallers rules knowledge can be difficult. Geoff - you mention turning off ARS sub areas, is that often done? I never really use that function in the sim, but presume this would be for engineering work etc.
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| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 20:03 #151043 | |
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y10g9
895 posts |
ARS would be switched off for engineering works, when dealing with failures or for multitude of other reasons. I've heard from others that when Bristol Temple Meads first went into TVSC, no signaller would work the station in ARS because it caused more problems than it helped. Have also heard of ARS doing missroutes at Bath Spa where a train terminated in P2 to return to Bristol, and ARS set a route for the following train to the signal between the crossover and the platform preventing the first train returning to Bristol. Switching ARS off in the area, or making the second train non ars would prevent that situation from occuring. The number 1 rule to remember with ARS is that it is an aid to the signaller, not the replacement Log in to reply |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 20:10 #151045 | |
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bugsy
1696 posts |
I quite often turn ARS off in a number of sub-areas when running a sim. This allows me to control more of the regulation of the trains. Also, where there is an option to turn TORR off when starting a new sim, I often do that as well. It adds to the workload but also the enjoyment
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| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 20:13 #151046 | |
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GeoffM
6282 posts |
2W34 in post 151041 said:Thank you, in particular TUT. That's what I was looking for. Trying to run SimSig realistically without the signallers rules knowledge can be difficult. Geoff - you mention turning off ARS sub areas, is that often done? I never really use that function in the sim, but presume this would be for engineering work etc.Not just engineering work. Each signaller has their preferred method of working but turning off the subarea or making the train non-ARS to prevent ARS setting route for the train are both used in real life. SimSig Boss Log in to reply |
| A few questions on day to day operations 03/04/2023 at 20:33 #151047 | |
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bill_gensheet
1317 posts |
2W34 in post 151041 said:Thank you, in particular TUT. That's what I was looking for. Trying to run SimSig realistically without the signallers rules knowledge can be difficult. Geoff - you mention turning off ARS sub areas, is that often done? I never really use that function in the sim, but presume this would be for engineering work etc.Try running Waterloo (or similar big terminii if you own them) in full ARS, and see how it does...... The 'keep on greens' tends to dominate over TRTS departures, until all the platforms fill up ! As I understand from discussions way back that is totally prototypical logic. Log in to reply |
| A few questions on day to day operations 04/04/2023 at 08:49 #151050 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2025 posts |
GeoffM in post 151046 said:2W34 in post 151041 said:I believe some earlier IECCs had instructions where they had to be worked for a certain amount of time each week with the entire ARS turned off so that the Signallers retained the practice for the event of a failure.Thank you, in particular TUT. That's what I was looking for. Trying to run SimSig realistically without the signallers rules knowledge can be difficult. Geoff - you mention turning off ARS sub areas, is that often done? I never really use that function in the sim, but presume this would be for engineering work etc.Not just engineering work. Each signaller has their preferred method of working but turning off the subarea or making the train non-ARS to prevent ARS setting route for the train are both used in real life. Log in to reply |