ARS at Northallerton

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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 10:56 #152785
bugsy
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1698 posts 		Is ARS true to life at Northallerton in the York simulation?
If ARS should automatically set routes in accordance with time tables, then it has thrown a wobbly at Northallerton where it put 1A65 from Eaglescliffe, which is early, in front of 1E13 from Darlington.
This wouldn’t have been a problem but 1A65 was due to depart after non-stopping 1E13 had passed through on time.

My fault I suppose for not keeping an eye on things as I know that ARS isn’t perfect.
I’ve now turned ARS off at this location.
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 12:16 #152787
Hap
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986 posts 		The ARS is working accordingly. It is up to the signaller to regulate accordingly.
How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 13:32 #152789
JamesN
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1577 posts
Online 		It’s likely that 1E13 hadn’t even entered when ARS decided to set the route for early 1A65.

ARS only knows of the existence of a train once it enters the sim, so it wouldn’t have known it was making an error.
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 14:38 #152791
bugsy
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1698 posts 		Hap in post 152787 said:
The ARS is working accordingly. It is up to the signaller to regulate accordingly.
So it ignores the timetable then?

I thought that I'd read somewhere that it took the timetables into account. Obviously not always.
I did actually say that it was my fault in my post and I can see why, as JamesN pointed out.
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Last edited: 13/08/2023 at 14:42 by bugsy
Reason: None given
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 15:19 #152792
flabberdacks
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582 posts 		ARS follows the timetable for trains it is aware of. ARS is not aware of a train which hasn't entered the sim yet. You do need to keep this in mind at locations near entry points in every sim I'm afraid.
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 15:46 #152794
bill_gensheet
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1318 posts 		AFAIK (mainly from debugging Edinburgh) ARS process goes:

I need to set a route to keep this train on greens.
Does this route conflict with another train that might want the same route soon ?
If so do a calculation on which gets (weighted) delayed least, using the timetable to work out when the conflicts are made and cleared.

The issues, and why it is only an aid, are:
If the 'conflicting' train is not there / started it is not conflicting - eg see how ARS runs a terminus like Victoria SC.
Fill, then empty.

Where there are allowances in the timetable that confuse the expected running times (Edinburgh, early morning ECML)

Where a track circuit is 'long' that confuses the clearing time (Edinburgh, Winchburgh chord)
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 18:40 #152798
GeoffM
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6287 posts 		The reason SimSig real life ARS only considers the trains it can see is because ARS gets the entire timetable sent to it, with no knowledge of which trains will actually run - freight schedules especially. So holding one train for another that isn't even running today, or running very late, would be rather silly.
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ARS at Northallerton 13/08/2023 at 20:24 #152800
bugsy
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1698 posts 		Thanks everyone for the advice and information.

I shall be more careful in future
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ARS at Northallerton 14/08/2023 at 07:26 #152804
Jan
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890 posts 		bill_gensheet in post 152794 said:
Where there are allowances in the timetable that confuse the expected running times (Edinburgh, early morning ECML)

Which at least partially is due to a mismatch between how Simsig's ARS understands timetable allowances and current (?) timetabling practices – for a section between timing points A and B, Simsig's ARS currently expects (engineering) allowances to be noted down in the timetable at B, i.e. following the section with the allowance, however a random sample of Simsig timetables almost all [1] include that allowance at the timing point preceeding the respective section, i.e. at A.

Plus I think with certain TD berth arrangments ARS gets additionally confused and applies the same allowance multiple times, making it predict that train to run possibly considerably earlier than what'll actually happen.


[1] I only found one old SwinDid timetable that had allowances put down in the way expected by ARS, i.e. following the respective timetabling section, but that was very much the exception.
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ARS at Northallerton 14/08/2023 at 12:30 #152806
bill_gensheet
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1318 posts 		Jan in post 152804 said:
bill_gensheet in post 152794 said:
Where there are allowances in the timetable that confuse the expected running times (Edinburgh, early morning ECML)

Which at least partially is due to a mismatch between how Simsig's ARS understands timetable allowances and current (?) timetabling practices – for a section between timing points A and B, Simsig's ARS currently expects (engineering) allowances to be noted down in the timetable at B, i.e. following the section with the allowance, however a random sample of Simsig timetables almost all [1] include that allowance at the timing point preceeding the respective section, i.e. at A.

Plus I think with certain TD berth arrangments ARS gets additionally confused and applies the same allowance multiple times, making it predict that train to run possibly considerably earlier than what'll actually happen.


[1] I only found one old SwinDid timetable that had allowances put down in the way expected by ARS, i.e. following the respective timetabling section, but that was very much the exception.
I stayed with 'allowances A' on Edinburgh as having the least issues, discussed in #31317 and ARS behaved better after loader 5.7. The SwinDid example may be due to the 'zero time' ARS problems back in loader 5.4.

Opendata shows allowances at 'A' currently:
http://charlwoodhouse.co.uk/rail/livetrain/C19433/13/08/23
eg Abington - Carstairs

Abington DM 02:38½ 04:40 122 Late Eng: 30
Carstairs South Junction 03:21 04:52 91 Late

Old paper WTT often had allowances between A & B
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ARS at Northallerton 14/08/2023 at 14:02 #152807
Dionysusnu
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575 posts 		I prefer the B solution in SimSig. With method A, because already-passed locations aren't shown in the schedule view, the allowances are gone before the train actually reaches the point that it'll pass early. Method B makes it a lot easier to predict how late/early a train will be for a conflicting move. It also allows specifying the allowance between the entry location and the first timing point, which is not possible with method A.
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