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Kings Cross Predicament

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Kings Cross Predicament 17/08/2023 at 19:24 #152879
Civolics
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Hey everyone,

So I currently have 1C07 ready to depart from platform 0 at Kings Cross, however there is a TCF obstructing the Fast Line 2 (Line A), which is where it is scheduled to be routed on to. As we know, trains from platform 0 are not able to be routed via Fast Line 1 until the switch just before the Copenhagen Tunnels. I'm inquiring about what to do in this situation if anyone is able to provide advice.

Thanks! -Civ :)


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Kings Cross Predicament 17/08/2023 at 20:10 #152880
DaveHarries
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Nothing you can do on that unfortunately except wait for the TCF to clear. Pity the sim isn't done to the current layout which would give 6 tracks, rather than 4, on that stretch among other things: I hope for an update one day, whenever that might be.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/ecm1#T_KNGX

Dave

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Kings Cross Predicament 17/08/2023 at 22:14 #152883
Civolics
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I hope for that day to come too. The timetable that I'm using is based on the weekend of November 1st 2014. I really appreciate the help though.
Last edited: 17/08/2023 at 22:15 by Civolics
Reason: None given

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Kings Cross Predicament 18/08/2023 at 07:35 #152887
kbarber
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Looks like a potential outgoing route is blocked by a route that's locked in, but which won't release until the track is occupied & cleared. If the S&T (F11 is your friend) were asked to drop then clear the track that covers that No. 1 - No. 2 crossover at Belle Isle, my reckoning is that the locked in portion of route would release and you could route out of P0 quite happily.

Caveat: it's a long time since I looked at a Rule Book and much has changed since then. It might or might not be legal these days; without looking I suspect it would always have wanted the 'box supervisor's authority.

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Kings Cross Predicament 18/08/2023 at 08:25 #152888
Stephen Fulcher
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It’s a specific competence “Release of Controls” which relatively few S&T staff have.

I’ve done it twice in my career, both after more significant incidents. Requirements to stop all trains in the interlocking area, coupled with a general lack of S&T staff to both release the control and fix the initial fault will usually mean it’s not done.

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Kings Cross Predicament 18/08/2023 at 10:19 #152889
bill_gensheet
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Civolics in post 152879 said:
Hey everyone,

So I currently have 1C07 ready to depart from platform 0 at Kings Cross, however there is a TCF obstructing the Fast Line 2 (Line A), which is where it is scheduled to be routed on to. As we know, trains from platform 0 are not able to be routed via Fast Line 1 until the switch just before the Copenhagen Tunnels. I'm inquiring about what to do in this situation if anyone is able to provide advice.

Thanks! -Civ :)

Swap the working with the next suitable incoming.
Without loading the save, are 1C07 and 1P55 the same train type (GN EMU for Peterborough / Cambridge)?

regards
Bill

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Kings Cross Predicament 18/08/2023 at 21:55 #152890
Civolics
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From memory, yes they are the same train type and length.

-Civ

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Kings Cross Predicament 18/08/2023 at 21:55 #152891
Civolics
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From memory, yes they are the same train type and length.

-Civ

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Kings Cross Predicament 19/09/2023 at 07:22 #153359
Giantray
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Stephen Fulcher in post 152888 said:
It’s a specific competence “Release of Controls” which relatively few S&T staff have.

I’ve done it twice in my career, both after more significant incidents. Requirements to stop all trains in the interlocking area, coupled with a general lack of S&T staff to both release the control and fix the initial fault will usually mean it’s not done.
When I was at London Bridge ASC I had requested Route Releases on many occasions. The majority of time is was a case of the Box TO going down stairs and doing the release, obviously stopping all trains in the interlocking area and completeing the necessary form. But a few times it meant an S&T Tech going to a remote relay room and doing it. At Three Bridges ROC they gave us TREL (track release) & PREL (point release) facilities. It allowed the Signaller under strict conditions to basically release their own controls without the need for an S&T member present, very convenient an great to get trapped trains moving.

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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Kings Cross Predicament 22/09/2023 at 17:12 #153390
DaveBarraza
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That was my answer as well. Take out a pencil and paper, check the timetable and change the equipment manipulations.
The paper is to remember what trip you “stole” from to cover 1C07. If you’re lucky it’s one simple swap. If you’re unlucky it can cascade for a while…

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Kings Cross Predicament 23/09/2023 at 02:11 #153394
Jriver
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Hi Glantray. Would love to hear more about these controls. Do you mean you can now swing points if the TC through them is occupied through a failure? And a failed track (axle counter) can be cleared with the signaller doing a reset? Would love to know more.

Cheers

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Kings Cross Predicament 23/09/2023 at 03:13 #153395
Hap
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This isn't anything new. As far as I am led to believe, this is the complete "hand of god" method to unlock a very specific situation. I wouldn't expect anything to run under this method other than recovering a trapped train. All the same, most of these methods can actually be manually simulated in Simsig whether it be a legitimate move or not for that specific area.

Craig

How to report an issue: www.SimSig.co.uk/Wiki/Show?page=usertrack:reportanissue
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Kings Cross Predicament 23/09/2023 at 23:33 #153407
Jriver
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We had discussions with NR on Thameslink about giving the Signaller the means of a vital command to swing points even if the track circuit or axle counter section through them was showing occupied whilst clear. I left prior to the final commissioning of Level 2 so not sure if it came to fruition. I know there were concerns we could be going too far with 'playing god' with the interlocking and possibly even contravening an Act of Parliament around dead locking and facing points used in passenger movements.
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Kings Cross Predicament 24/09/2023 at 07:26 #153408
Giantray
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Jriver in post 153394 said:
Hi Glantray. Would love to hear more about these controls. Do you mean you can now swing points if the TC through them is occupied through a failure? And a failed track (axle counter) can be cleared with the signaller doing a reset? Would love to know more.

Cheers

Yes basically that is the case. TREL & PREL are two separate controls we use on WestCad that allow the Signaller under strict condictions to release Track Circuits to release Route Locking (TREL) or release Track Circuits to allow a locked set of points by that track circuit to be moved (PREL). There are limitations for this and cannot always be used, but can for the majority of faults. What is paramount, is the Signaller must ensure that the last train over the failed track circuit has gone clear and is complete.

As for Axle counters, yes again under strict instructions Signallers are permited to reset Axle counters and carry out any relevant rules and regs applicable.

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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Kings Cross Predicament 24/09/2023 at 07:33 #153409
Giantray
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Hap in post 153395 said:
This isn't anything new. As far as I am led to believe, this is the complete "hand of god" method to unlock a very specific situation. I wouldn't expect anything to run under this method other than recovering a trapped train. All the same, most of these methods can actually be manually simulated in Simsig whether it be a legitimate move or not for that specific area.

Craig
Though avoided, there is nothing stopping a Signaller using PREL to move a set of points locked by a track circuit each time they require a different route set. Like with any Track Circuit showing occupied, the Signaller must ensure the previous train has passed through and gone clear of the occupied track circuit before authorising anoher train to enter the section, the same applies before using PREL. As you say this can be replicated in Simsig though not the same method, there are soft keys or Keyboard commands to use on WestCad.

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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Kings Cross Predicament 24/09/2023 at 07:47 #153410
Giantray
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Jriver in post 153407 said:
We had discussions with NR on Thameslink about giving the Signaller the means of a vital command to swing points even if the track circuit or axle counter section through them was showing occupied whilst clear. I left prior to the final commissioning of Level 2 so not sure if it came to fruition. I know there were concerns we could be going too far with 'playing god' with the interlocking and possibly even contravening an Act of Parliament around dead locking and facing points used in passenger movements.
Like the "Hand of God" wording. What is the difference between a Signaller authorising a train into a Track Circuit showing occupied (over-riding interlocking) and a Signaller having the facility to release track circuits for Route Release or Point movements (over-riding interlocking)? If I cannot set a route for any reason, I manually set it and then authorise a train to pass a signal at Danger (over-riding interlocking).

We even have PoSA signalling. If a track circuit has failed in a route, or flank locking prevents a signal to clear. Again under strict Rules and Regs a Signaller can us the PoSA facilty that will give drivers a signal to proceed, in the form of a Flashing Call-on position light signal. After the initial train cautioned through, this removes the need for the Signaller to contact the driver each time. The driver sees the PoSA signal and carries out their rules pertaining to movements by PoSA signals.

In mechanical boxes it was not uncommon for there to be all different types of releases that the Signaller could use to get out of situations.

Provided there are strict Rules and regs to follow to carry out the procedure safely, it not a "Hand of God". Signallers are responsible people with huge responsiblity, hence why they get paid a lot.

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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Kings Cross Predicament 25/09/2023 at 06:18 #153414
Jriver
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The consensus on TL was allowing trains to enter a block showing occupied whilst clear was relaxed. As you say, there are strict rules on both the Signaller and Driver roles, and in Level 2, the system will enforce an On Sight maximum speed (On TL it was 25mpg IIRC). Swinging points though when the TC has failed is not quite the same before this control came in though is it? Prior to this, a competent worker under the instruction of the Signaller would have wound the points into the required position, something they are not going to do if there happens to be a train there.
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Kings Cross Predicament 26/09/2023 at 07:18 #153422
flabberdacks
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It's become clearer to me over my years in rail operations, that the main reason for having strict interlocking during failure scenarios is to protect the public against poorly trained and poorly mentored signallers. Granting any ability for the person on panel to override interlocking and release locked points is a long discussion indeed.
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Kings Cross Predicament 30/09/2023 at 13:41 #153465
tomkagnew
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In the context of the older NX panel installations like the previous LBASC and current TBASC without these 'releases', how would all the above considerations integrate with a MOM winding points to maintain a set route and regulated service?
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Kings Cross Predicament 30/09/2023 at 15:51 #153467
Giantray
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flabberdacks in post 153422 said:
It's become clearer to me over my years in rail operations, that the main reason for having strict interlocking during failure scenarios is to protect the public against poorly trained and poorly mentored signallers. Granting any ability for the person on panel to override interlocking and release locked points is a long discussion indeed.
If that is what you think about Signallers I suggest you never travel by train! How dare you say they are poorly trained and poorly mentored!! Signallers go through a long process of training, especially in ROCs. They are constantly tested on rules and regs. Do you really think Network Rail would allow a person to take charge of a Signalbox/panel/workstation without being properly trained? Signallers often signal without the security of interlocking. For a lot of Signallers in busy locations it is almost a daily occurence with faults, failures and incidents. There were very few shifts in my 32 years signalling the London Birgde Area, both NX & WestCad, that I have not had to move trains without the security of interlocking. You obvious have no idea how TREL & PREL work and what the procedures are in using them. When in a failure situation that is when a Signaller becomes a signaller and has to move trains without the security of interlocking using their knowledge of Rules and Regs. They are not playing SIMSIG!!!!

Retired Professional Railwayman (1981-2023); Pway & S&T (1981-88); Former Signalman/Signaller/ Signalling Trainer (1989-2023) [AB, TCB, Mechanical, NX, WestCad, Hitachi SARS]; Railway Historian (esp.SER, LCDR); Member of The Permanent Way Institution..
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Kings Cross Predicament 10/10/2023 at 09:16 #153574
kbarber
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Giantray in post 153410 said:
Jriver in post 153407 said:
We had discussions with NR on Thameslink about giving the Signaller the means of a vital command to swing points even if the track circuit or axle counter section through them was showing occupied whilst clear. I left prior to the final commissioning of Level 2 so not sure if it came to fruition. I know there were concerns we could be going too far with 'playing god' with the interlocking and possibly even contravening an Act of Parliament around dead locking and facing points used in passenger movements.
Like the "Hand of God" wording. What is the difference between a Signaller authorising a train into a Track Circuit showing occupied (over-riding interlocking) and a Signaller having the facility to release track circuits for Route Release or Point movements (over-riding interlocking)? If I cannot set a route for any reason, I manually set it and then authorise a train to pass a signal at Danger (over-riding interlocking).

We even have PoSA signalling. If a track circuit has failed in a route, or flank locking prevents a signal to clear. Again under strict Rules and Regs a Signaller can us the PoSA facilty that will give drivers a signal to proceed, in the form of a Flashing Call-on position light signal. After the initial train cautioned through, this removes the need for the Signaller to contact the driver each time. The driver sees the PoSA signal and carries out their rules pertaining to movements by PoSA signals.

In mechanical boxes it was not uncommon for there to be all different types of releases that the Signaller could use to get out of situations.

Provided there are strict Rules and regs to follow to carry out the procedure safely, it not a "Hand of God". Signallers are responsible people with huge responsiblity, hence why they get paid a lot.
In a manual box you'd find sealed releases for any points locked by TC; if you had a failure, you broke the seal (paper or glass according to which region's standards applied when it was installed), pressed the button, and - hey presto, your points (or FPL) were released. You would continue to work in that way until the S&T had fixed the TC, after which they would renew the seal. There were standard instructions for using sealed releases which laid down that they were to be used in cases of failure only and not for traffic purposes, so if you were daft enough to box yourself up you had to get out of it the hard way!

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