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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk

You are here: Home > Forum > Miscellaneous > The real thing (anything else rail-oriented) > Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 11/11/2013 at 23:48 #51385
paul87101
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67 posts
Hi,

In case some people are not aware, I have just found more live signalling diagrams (I was only aware of those at Opentraintimes previously) at http://www.railcam.org.uk/supporters/xoops_diagraminfo.php for supporters.

I hope this is of interest to somebody

Paul

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 08:57 #51395
welwyn
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15 posts
and also found this one too for SWT

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/maps/areas/swml/4

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 13:02 #51410
jetblast787
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62 posts
Interesting; Anymore on realtime trains? Would like to see one for the Portsmouth direct line
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 15:59 #51421
Class 92
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359 posts
" said:
and also found this one too for SWT

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/maps/areas/swml/4
How did you find that?

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 17:13 #51428
Louis
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32 posts
Just this: www.realtimetrains.co.uk/maps/areas/mml/4

My intention is to go further north to Sheffield and into Nottingham.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 20:44 #51447
welwyn
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15 posts
I found it in a railway forum thread somewhere...couldnt find much other than SWT on the site though
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 21:20 #51449
Class 92
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359 posts
There doesn't appear to be any ways of getting to it from the homepage or anything only through the links is it meant to be public?
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 12/11/2013 at 22:13 #51453
Louis
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32 posts
" said:
There doesn't appear to be any ways of getting to it from the homepage or anything only through the links is it meant to be public?
There is no plan to link it on the website, it is just being done on a link only basis for areas of the site owner and contributers interest.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 11:47 #51515
JohnMiller
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321 posts
I singed up to the RailCam Live Signaling Diagrams site at http://www.railcam.org.uk/supporters/xoops_diagraminfo.php a good few days ago but heard Nowt since, so beware
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 14:47 #51529
Stephen Fulcher
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2074 posts
I am still confused by the obsession that these sites have with jumbling out the freight headcodes.

The way I see it, as Network Rail provide them, there cannot be an issue with people using them. If there were then there would be an obligation on the part of Network Rail not to provide them.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 14:52 #51531
Zoe
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251 posts
" said:
I am still confused by the obsession that these sites have with jumbling out the freight headcodes.

The way I see it, as Network Rail provide them, there cannot be an issue with people using them. If there were then there would be an obligation on the part of Network Rail not to provide them.

Network Rail do not provide real reporting numbers for non-passneger trains in the live data as this is considered to be commercially sensitive information. Originally no non-passenger train information was provided but this was then changed to anonymized information. The reporting numbers are anonymized by Network Rail and not by the sites in question. I use the data direclty from Network Rail and what I get is the same as what you will see on any of the websites.

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 14:54 by Zoe
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 14:55 #51532
Stephen Fulcher
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I see. I was under the impression that they were randomised at the end after all the confusion with Opentraintimes and SWlines providing them and then all of a sudden not.

Seems strange that it would be commercially sensitive, but nothing surprises me with NR.

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 14:55 by Stephen Fulcher
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 14:59 #51533
Zoe
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251 posts
" said:
Seems strange that it would be commercially sensitive, but nothing surprises me with NR.

I'm not sure it was NR as much as the freight companies not wanting the live running information made available to rivals like road haulage companies. The current situation is certainly an improvemnt on the previous one when messages for non-passenger trains were just filtered out and if a train was taking a long time to step between berths you would have no way of knowing if there was a freight train in front.

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 15:08 by Zoe
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 15:01 #51535
headshot119
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4869 posts
" said:
" said:
Seems strange that it would be commercially sensitive, but nothing surprises me with NR.

I'm not sure it was NR as much as the freight companies not wanting the live running information made available to rivals like road haulage companies.
Although it's still a bit daft when you see where some of the trains are going from or to. Liverpool Coal Pad 1 EWS - Aberthaw Power Station, hmmm I wonder what that trains is carrying *strokes chin* (Made up example but you get the point)

"Passengers for New Lane, should be seated in the rear coach of the train " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 15:02 by headshot119
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 15:01 #51536
Stephen Fulcher
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Ironically, the schedule would probably be of more use than the headcode, which is probably of little interest outside of the industry and its enthusiasts.

I wonder how much of it has to do with the freight companies providing such information to companies who sell it to enthusiasts?

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 16:14 #51539
Temple Meads
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" said:
I wonder how much of it has to do with the freight companies providing such information to companies who sell it to enthusiasts?
Do those companies get the details from the operators though, or from Network Rail?

Username TIM in multiplayer
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 18:35 #51540
Danny252
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Given that headcodes are scrambled identically on different sites, you'd be hard pressed to argue it's anywhere but the source!

The train type character (class 2, 5, 6, 7...) is preserved, but the remaining three digits are (I suspect) randomised based on the departure time of the train.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 18:40 #51541
Sacro
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" said:
...randomised based on the departure time of the train.
No, they're sequential.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 19:46 #51543
Danny252
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" said:
" said:
...randomised based on the departure time of the train.
No, they're sequential.
As in each random ID is entered sequentially - e.g. 6Z00, 4Z00 and 3Z00 departing in order would become 600A, 401A and 302A?

(There must be something else to it, as I've seen 675X for a train departing 40 minutes before 657X, and an hour before 663X...)

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 19:49 by Danny252
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 20:46 #51547
Simdmuk
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Originally head codes were not randomised,but after "complaints" this changed.Some say it was rail tour companies,some the FOC's.The real reason seems to be hidden.

The argument about road haulage doesn't add up.A head code is pretty meaningless to most outside the rail industry.Even those with knowledge,the headcode dosent give much away.Network Rail themselves publish on line,the WTT which gives full head code information (yes I know its the WTT but it still could give alot away).As Head shot says there's more "sensitive" information in the publicly available schedule information on RTT for example than anything else !.
Many believe this is more to do with money.
There is a certain well known web site that provides exactly what RTT provides WITH the head codes for a small annual fee.What's to stop a road haulier paying the fee and getting the head codes ?
Doesn't make sense ,other then at least two well known providers of freight information for enthusiasts going down the tubes if the head code info was made free.

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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 20:58 #51551
Zoe
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251 posts
" said:
Originally head codes were not randomised,but after "complaints" this changed.Some say it was rail tour companies,some the FOC's.The real reason seems to be hidden.

Unanonymized reporting numbers for non-passenger trains have never been available in the live data provided by Network Rail. There were some sites which provided timetables including freight services but this was before the live train movement/train describer data was made available by NR and freight services were soon completely removed from these sites.

When the live data was released last year by NR, only information for classes 1, 2 and 9 was provided in the train describer data with class 5 available only in the train movement feed. This was possible as trains in this feed could be filtered by TOC and so any class 5s not operated by a TOC (I believe there was/is at least one) were not included. It then changed this year so that that non-passenger trains would be made available with anonymized reporting numbers and the sites in question then reinstated freight times. The anonymized reporting numbers are only used in the live train movmenet/train descriebr data, the schedules just have the reporting number and category completely removed. As I said above, the anonymization is actually an improvement on the previous situation where no live information on non-passenger trains was provided at all.

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 21:29 by Zoe
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 21:31 #51556
Peter Bennet
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Class 3 and Class 5s are reported with real numbers.

Actually, on a slightly different tack - having joined the ranks of Twitter I found there was a feed that likes to report FCC's cancelled and delayed trains throughout the day. I did some investigating via RTT site and found it was including ECS workings in the stats which (as I said to them) was slightly disingenuous (though the point was ignored).

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 14/11/2013 at 21:37 #51557
Zoe
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251 posts
" said:
Class 3 and Class 5s are reported with real numbers.

This should only be the case for trains run by passenger companies. In the rare event of a Class 3 or Class 5 train operated by a non-passenger company then these should be anonymzed. Even a non-passenger company running a train under class 1 should be anonymized.

Last edited: 14/11/2013 at 22:03 by Zoe
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 15/11/2013 at 03:25 #51562
Danny252
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" said:
" said:
Class 3 and Class 5s are reported with real numbers.

This should only be the case for trains run by passenger companies. In the rare event of a Class 3 or Class 5 train operated by a non-passenger company then these should be anonymzed. Even a non-passenger company running a train under class 1 should be anonymized.
Even then, things such as driver training/extra moves between depots have randomised headcodes - for example, moves between Cricklewood and Hornsey, which presumably are done by FCC staff, are randomised. Class 3s not being passenger are also hardly "rare" - RHTTs, for example.

There are even passenger-carrying trains that are randomised, such as the VSOE trains, even though they are in the passenger WTT! I expect that other charter trains would be similarly affected, but I've yet to come across any of those.

There's also the separate "FRGT" headcode given to some trains, but quite what the criteria for that are, I'm not sure.

Quote:
The anonymized reporting numbers are only used in the live train movmenet/train descriebr data, the schedules just have the [...] category completely removed.
Do you mean the class, or the destination code? Only the latter is removed.

Last edited: 15/11/2013 at 03:26 by Danny252
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Live Signaling Diagrams at railcam.org.uk 15/11/2013 at 09:08 #51566
swlines
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3 posts
" said:
" said:
" said:
Class 3 and Class 5s are reported with real numbers.

This should only be the case for trains run by passenger companies. In the rare event of a Class 3 or Class 5 train operated by a non-passenger company then these should be anonymzed. Even a non-passenger company running a train under class 1 should be anonymized.
Even then, things such as driver training/extra moves between depots have randomised headcodes - for example, moves between Cricklewood and Hornsey, which presumably are done by FCC staff, are randomised. Class 3s not being passenger are also hardly "rare" - RHTTs, for example.

There are even passenger-carrying trains that are randomised, such as the VSOE trains, even though they are in the passenger WTT! I expect that other charter trains would be similarly affected, but I've yet to come across any of those.

Any train marked as being operated by a freight operator is anonymised. If a working is operated by a passenger operator, it is not anonymised. It has nothing to do with what the train actually does/is carrying.

Quote:
There's also the separate "FRGT" headcode given to some trains, but quite what the criteria for that are, I'm not sure.

Realtime Trains uses the criteria of if the service is operated by ATOC code ZZ then it received a FRGT identity until a time that it receives an anonymised identity from one of the realtime feeds.

Quote:
Do you mean the class, or the destination code? Only the latter is removed.

Two bits of information are removed from anonymised services. These are the train identity (i.e. 3Z01 for example) and the train category (which identifies what it does, e.g. XU for unadvertised express).

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