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"Run out of valid track" explained?

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"Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 01:44 #23841
maxand
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Can anyone explain clearly exactly what the message "Run out of valid track" means in SimSig, what circumstances are likely to cause it and what remedial actions can be taken?

I've looked through the Wiki and Forum posts and found several instances but it's still not clear why this message occurs.

Big thanks in advance.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 02:05 #23843
UKTrainMan
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Not sure how to explain this one, but I can give you an example of when I've known it to occur.

If you authorise a train to pass a signal at danger or authorise it to move and the trailing points ahead are set against it, then it will show "Run out of valid track".

Here's a slightly dodgy diagram showing what I mean.

-----------¬\--------
---TRAIN--\_-----

¬\ and \_ is the points set from the top line to the bottom line, so against the train.

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 02:10 by UKTrainMan
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 03:30 #23850
maxand
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Thanks UKTrainMan. I'm starting to get the idea now.

So if a train coming from C heads towards A, such a message will be generated?



(courtesy of Wikipedia)

Hard to imagine this happening in SimSig where points are supposed to be interlocked, therefore a route could not be set from C to A in the first place to enable a train to pass that way. Conversely, it ought be impossible to lock the points (shown above) normal if a route had been set. But as you say, authorizing the driver to pass signal (at C) at danger would force this. However, even in the absence of such authorization this message can appear, as I discovered here.

Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 03:37 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 03:40 #23851
UKTrainMan
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Happens in SimSig if you authorise a train from C to A with the points set against it, and as it's an unsignalled move there is no interlocking involved. Bit like the driver seeing the points are set wrongly ahead of them (have seen this actually happen) and stopping the train suddenly, but missing a phone call (hmmm... ;)).

edited to add

In this case, it looks like "Run out of valid track" had occurred because the train doesn't fit there.

Any views and / or opinions expressed by myself are from me personally and do not represent those of any company I either work for or am a consultant for.
Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 04:21 by UKTrainMan
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 04:43 #23854
maxand
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Thank you. Added to Wiki.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 06:48 #23858
BarryM
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Maxand, there is more to the above than quoted. A train running into a dead end without a timetable location is one.

Clive will be able to explain the technical reasons that create the message.
Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 06:57 #23860
Peter Bennet
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There are other circumstances but I can't recall all of them -save that it's essentially what it says on the tin- the train has come to a bit of track that it can't access. Whether there is anything you can do about it depends on the facts.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 08:31 #23868
dmaze
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Another case where I've run into it is trying to work around a track circuit failure by trying to route trains on to a track that's only signaled in the opposite direction; it turns out the sim won't let you do this and you'll get "run out of valid track". (I think this particular attempt also did involve having a train pass a signal at danger.)
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 13:01 #23898
alvinhochun
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Also once trying to make a train collide with the other one... (but it seems the main reason is that the train runs to a dead end...)
I've also tried in Royston, signalling a long train from K244 to Sherriff's sliding and it ended up stuck in there showing the status.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 13:08 #23899
Albert
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" said:
Another case where I've run into it is trying to work around a track circuit failure by trying to route trains on to a track that's only signaled in the opposite direction; it turns out the sim won't let you do this and you'll get "run out of valid track". (I think this particular attempt also did involve having a train pass a signal at danger.)

This usually happens on old sims, most current simulations don't have this problem. Or at least I didn't notice it.

AJP in games
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 13:25 #23902
maxand
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alvinhochun said:

Quote:
I've also tried in Royston, signalling a long train from K244 to Sherriff's sliding and it ended up stuck in there showing the status.

That sounds **very** familiar.

Last edited: 28/11/2011 at 13:26 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 21:44 #23939
clive
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" said:

But as you say, authorizing the driver to pass signal (at C) at danger would force this. However, even in the absence of such authorization this message can appear
The message appears when a train can't proceed because of the state of the track. This can be because:
- there's no track ahead
- the track ahead exists but the points are set wrong
- the track ahead exists but the relevant sub-route doesn't exist
- the track ahead has the wrong electrification for the train.

The third case needs a bit more explanation. In older sims, if a track wasn't specifically made bidirectional, you'd get this if you tried to send a train the wrong way down a track. Nowdays it's limited to complex track situations. Suppose you have a track circuit with back to back points, so that a train on the main line in either direction can turn off on to a branch or crossover. If there's no expectation that a train will come off one branch and on to the other, and it isn't a signalled route, it might not be included in the simulation. In that case, a train approaching the track circuit with both points reversed will go into this state.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 28/11/2011 at 21:51 #23941
clive
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Quote:
I've also tried in Royston, signalling a long train from K244 to Sherriff's sliding and it ended up stuck in there showing the status.
Royston has some special code for Sherriff's siding: trains will only exit the sim if timetabled to the siding with no further plans.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 29/11/2011 at 00:13 #23961
maxand
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Thanks again Clive for your expertise.
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 01/12/2011 at 00:36 #24172
Josie
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I've also noticed 'run out of valid track' in connection with a bug in the Incident Control Panel which I first mentioned here - I (still!) haven't got round to properly testing the circumstances in which it occurs but I have definitely noticed it recently, for example in Euston. (or was it Lime Street? All these wonderful new sims )
Last edited: 01/12/2011 at 00:38 by Josie
Reason: Over-excitement at new sims causing memory loss.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 01/12/2011 at 23:09 #24261
Lardybiker
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It happens on South Humberside when trains enter at a place that requires certain GF's to be operated to let it into the sim proper. If a train entered the sim from say Barnetby sidings, if the signaller is a bit tardy, then the train will run up to the GF points and "run out of valid track". Theres no signal to stop it (the GF controls only the points and there are no other signals so adding one would be unprototypical). At the time I hadn't got a better of dealing with it so I left it as it was.

Suprisingly few people have actually spotted it but it did get noticed so it will be fixed along with a bunch of other stuff when I complete the South Humberside update.

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 02/12/2011 at 00:26 #24264
BarryM
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" said:
It happens on South Humberside when trains enter at a place that requires certain GF's to be operated to let it into the sim proper. If a train entered the sim from say Barnetby sidings, if the signaller is a bit tardy, then the train will run up to the GF points and "run out of valid track". Theres no signal to stop it (the GF controls only the points and there are no other signals so adding one would be unprototypical). At the time I hadn't got a better of dealing with it so I left it as it was.

Suprisingly few people have actually spotted it but it did get noticed so it will be fixed along with a bunch of other stuff when I complete the South Humberside update.
It will be great when it is done.

Barry

Barry, Sydney, New South Wales, Australia
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 02/12/2011 at 02:48 #24271
maxand
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Lardybiker wrote:

Quote:
It happens on South Humberside when trains enter at a place that requires certain GF's to be operated to let it into the sim proper.
Interesting situation, no interlocking here! Must try this sim to get the feel of using GFs (Ground Frames).

At the beginning of this thread I asked what remedial action can be taken. When a train runs out of valid track, can the situation be saved by signalling the driver to reverse?

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 02/12/2011 at 17:17 #24308
Steamer
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Yes (via the F2 menu), or shortening the train until it fits in.
"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 04/12/2011 at 21:44 #24454
Lardybiker
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Quote:
It happens on South Humberside when trains enter at a place that requires certain GF's to be operated to let it into the sim proper.

Interesting situation, no interlocking here! Must try this sim to get the feel of using GFs (Ground Frames).[\quote]

Quote:
At the beginning of this thread I asked what remedial action can be taken. When a train runs out of valid track, can the situation be saved by signalling the driver to reverse?
In South Humberside, the only place I've had a report of it happening is at the GF's in which case you simply release the GF, operate the GF levers and the train will enter the sim. For other sims or situations, it depends on where the train is and what its doing.

Last edited: 04/12/2011 at 21:45 by Lardybiker
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 07:18 #24624
maxand
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Here's another puzzling one in Bristol sim, 1980s era, starting 5.00 AM and concerning the first loco, 0C081.

It departs from the Bath Road Depot (arrowed), bound for MS1 (Middle Siding 1, circled). The logical route to set is from 553 at the depot to 59.



From here on it's obvious; via 560 and 566 into MS1. How else can one possibly get there?



Time passes. 0C081 sits there like a stunned mullet, still facing Up. Finally in desperation, I signal the driver to Reverse. 0C081 begins to move, losing its headcode in the process. But who cares, as long as it arrives where it's s'posed to?



Uh oh. 0C081 runs out of valid track and disappears up its own fundamental orifice.



Enough to make a grown man weep.

Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 07:21 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 07:58 #24628
maxand
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Where could the train have gone? Recalling the 1994 movie Speed, I phoned the Bristol Temple Meads stationmaster in case 0C081 had crashed through the station and come out the other side. He assured me that this could not possibly have occurred as SimSig is too well-behaved to permit anything like this to occur. Instead, he conjectured, it was more likely to have returned to the depot via another dimension. I understand its next scheduled stop will be Hogwarts.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 08:02 by maxand
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 07:59 #24629
Late Turn
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Max,

Without running the sim, I wonder if the loco wants to go behind the main signal in the opposite direction (20??) to reverse - I think that's where the timetable location is. The 'run out of valid track' error is probably then because the loco's still looking for Bristol East Jn. If you were dead set on reversing at that dolly 's nothing wrong with that - but you'd need to either change the timetable location (through F2 and 'edit timetable'to - from memory - something like Bristol East Outer Reverse (??), or reverse the train manually and then set Bristol TM to be the next location.

I'll try that out on the sim after breakfast!

Tom

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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 07:59 #24630
AndyG
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It's because it reverses at Bristol East Jn, not Bristol East middle or inner reverse locations, ie it reverses behind signal 59.

As a side effect, as you reversed it before it reached that location, the TT hasn't stepped up so it's looking to reach that location rather than MS1/2 and so runs out of track. If it's allowed to reverse behind 59, all works perfectly well without intervention.

I can only help one person a day. Today's not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look too good either.
Last edited: 07/12/2011 at 08:02 by AndyG
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Re: "Run out of valid track" explained? 07/12/2011 at 08:09 #24631
maxand
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AndyG, on the layout signal 59 IS at Bristol East Junction. The next signal along (on Filton Main) is at 233.
I could have routed to 571, but then there's no way to reverse back to MS1.

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