New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston

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New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 07:12 #28450
maxand
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Royston - A Beginner's Guide

Thanks to everyone who helped me learn SimSig well enough to create this tutorial.
Comments welcome.

Last edited: 31/01/2012 at 07:12 by maxand
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 11:14 #28455
mfcooper
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First impression - mixed.

Lots of very good beginner detail, but lots of little "digs" at SimSig hidden within the pages (eg: "search the forum (good luck!) or post a new question"). These may be your personal comments, but some of them are a little, "insulting" isn't the correct word I'm looking for but it will do.

Also, I don't think a manual should tell new users to SPAD and Shunt Forward to get a train to do what you want it to do. A user should work to the limitations of the signalling system, as every signaller has to in real life! If I were allowed to authorise drivers to pass a signal at danger at the drop of a hat, then all sorts of errors could begin to surface and the possibility for derailments and/or collisions becomes very high.

Last edited: 31/01/2012 at 11:20 by mfcooper
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 12:33 #28460
jc92
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also of course, being slightly pedantic- you cant authorise a train to "SPAD" as it wouldnt be a SPAD

you can authorise him to pass a signal at danger and proceed at caution though...

“To Cambridge” is indicated on the map, yet trains on the timetable are shown as coming “from Shepreth”.
this is becuase the line heads to cambridge? common sense application here?

like MFcooper i have some mixed thoughts about this....

firstly i can see it has been produced as a comprehensive newbie freindly manual and has taken a long time to compile and format, at least someone has taken the time to actually follow up on something they have suggested.

however i do also see that a lot of the manual has "critical analysis" of SimSig, which i see as rather improffesional and when a newbie sees this, it can be offputting as it is essentially slating the game. i also see a lot of "opinion" in the manual, ie your way of doing things, not nessecarily the generally accepted or correct way of doing things.

another issue is i feel some of the descriptions and expanations given are incorrect or insufficient.

however as said previously, the time and effort is much appreciated, it just needs refinement

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 31/01/2012 at 12:41 by jc92
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 12:56 #28462
northroad
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Max.
Refering to the section headed Goods Trains
Are you correct in saying that the R in 6R02 stands for it telling us that it reverses somewhere along the way and also that the T in 6T41 stands for a through train.
I always thought that the second digit or letter in the 'four position numbers destination indicator' was used to indicate the destination i.e. region in the case of an inter regional train, division in the case of a train running within the region or for a local passenger train within, in this case the Kings Cross division.

Otherwise I am still going through this. Detailed and long but obviously a lot of effort has gone into it.

Geoff

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 13:13 #28463
Peter Bennet
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" said:
Max.
Refering to the section headed Goods Trains
Are you correct in saying that the R in 6R02 stands for it telling us that it reverses somewhere along the way and also that the T in 6T41 stands for a through train.
I always thought that the second digit or letter in the 'four position numbers destination indicator' was used to indicate the destination i.e. region in the case of an inter regional train, division in the case of a train running within the region or for a local passenger train within, in this case the Kings Cross division.

Otherwise I am still going through this. Detailed and long but obviously a lot of effort has gone into it.

Geoff
Geoff,

You are correct- the fact that the train do reverse/go through is co-incidental.

Max,

I stumbled across your work last night and it indeed seems a really comprehensive and detailed analyses of how to work Royston (and indeed read-across to other sims in many respects). You are to be commended on the dedication you put in and to not being deflected by the comments we have made during the, at times tortuous, process to get there.

I have not read in detail what you have said but I do think they may be some stylistic and factual issues to be worked through as other have said.

Thanks

Peter

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 13:51 #28465
maxand
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Thanks to you both so far for your feedback.

I am sure I have made several factual errors and will try to put them right. Yes, that SPAD doesn't fit - must change that, thanks.

As for seeming too critical of SimSig, the tutorial does reflect my personal experiences on trying to come to grips with it. I'm sure you'll appreciate that I'm trying to be fair to both sides here by presenting my impression of SimSig warts and all. Where possible I try to provide reasons for why things are the way they are, and put myself back in the shoes I wore when I first began playing.

The problems newbies face are not only that there is a vastly greater amount of information to assimilate than they ever dreamed of, there are illogicalities lurking under the surface of every sim like dead trees under the surface of a lake, waiting to take you out when you inevitably run across them. The manual I thought was marginally intelligible to a newbie, and even a trifle dishonest in the way it claimed long freight trains could not fit behind the LOS (LK246) shunt signal, as I disproved. That set me wondering. If that's the case, why does the sim need it, particularly if its freight trains are fictitious anyway? So far I haven't encountered any other train that uses it, and anyway it's impossible to set a route from K978 to it, so I can't see Up Main trains using it. However, as I haven't played all its trains (it gets terribly boring after a while) perhaps there are one or two.

Quote:
however i do also see that a lot of the manual has "critical analysis" of SimSig, which i see as rather improffesional and when a newbie sees this, it can be offputting as it is essentially slating the game.
Sure, I could have been a bit more polite in some areas, but I believe my approach is more likely to empower the newbie and encourage him to grasp SimSig and shake it a bit more, rather than retreat discouraged, as I did the first time I tackled it. That was a nightmare. I had no idea why nothing seemed to work the way I expected, even after reading everything forward and backward three times.

I just wish I'd read what I wrote when I first started playing.

I demonstrated SimSig to one of my friends recently, a guy who's been around model trains and train simulators for years - but not UK signalling. He almost freaked out when he saw how large the Exeter area was and quickly exclaimed "Too hard for me".

Let's face it - the most important feeling to get across is confidence that one can actually make the blasted thing work, even if it involves grabbing a train by its driver and frogmarching it to the LOS. Once a user gets this far, this degree of empowerment will enable him to shrug aside all the slings and arrows that interlocking can send his way.

Right now I believe SimSig's best assets are guys like you who really do go out of your way to answer questions. When I get a bit more experience under my belt I hope I can do likewise.

PS I only just today discovered that RGS not only had Rule modules but a whole new section named, of all things, Railway Group Standards (hope the URL's right).

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 13:54 #28466
maxand
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Missed Peter and Geoff's comments while composing my reply.

Yep. From Royston's manual:
Quote:
Normal headcodes are used. Trains with a C or T headcode run through to or from Cambridge (C headcodes reverse at Cambridge, T headcodes continue further north). Trains with an R headcode reverse at Royston.
Can't get any closer to the horse's mouth than that.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 14:07 #28467
BoxBoyKit
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....if RGS didn't have Railway Group Standards I'd be questioning why it was called RGS (Railway Group Standards)...
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 14:11 #28468
Peter Bennet
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" said:
Missed Peter and Geoff's comments while composing my reply.

Yep. From Royston's manual:
Quote:
Normal headcodes are used. Trains with a C or T headcode run through to or from Cambridge (C headcodes reverse at Cambridge, T headcodes continue further north). Trains with an R headcode reverse at Royston.
Can't get any closer to the horse's mouth than that. :)
I suspect that is a mis-interpretation of what was meant.

It's more likely that as a matter of fact the trains with T ran through and trains with R reversed at Royston. Generally R means the destination/Origin is Royston (so by default they terminate and return) and C- Cambridge and T-Kings Lynn.

So on Kings Cross Sim 2R23 (say) is a train that goes to Royston- not a generic code for a train that reverses.

Peter

I identify as half man half biscuit - crumbs!
Last edited: 31/01/2012 at 14:12 by Peter Bennet
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 17:25 #28474
Steamer
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Well done Max, a comprehensive manual, and clearly a lot of work has gone into it. However, like several other people, I think you need to edit parts where you're putting your opinion of SimSig over to the reader, which while fine on the Forum, should be kept off the Wiki. I appreciate that you/new players can be frustrated with SimSig to start, however please don't have a dig at developers/signal plan writers on the Wiki, unless it's the phrase "this is a bug".

To answer a few problems you raised in your latest post:

" said:
The problems newbies face are not only that there is a vastly greater amount of information to assimilate than they ever dreamed of, there are illogicalities lurking under the surface of every sim like dead trees under the surface of a lake, waiting to take you out when you inevitably run across them. The manual I thought was marginally intelligible to a newbie, and even a trifle dishonest in the way it claimed long freight trains could not fit behind the LOS (LK246) shunt signal, as I disproved. That set me wondering. If that's the case, why does the sim need it, particularly if its freight trains are fictitious anyway? So far I haven't encountered any other train that uses it, and anyway it's impossible to set a route from K978 to it, so I can't see Up Main trains using it. However, as I haven't played all its trains (it gets terribly boring after a while) perhaps there are one or two.
You can't set a route directly from K978 to LK246, true, but you can set a route K978>K246>LK246. With your point on the LOS signal, remember that although only 1 train uses the reverse in the default TT, someone might want to write a historical TT where the freight trains were real. The timetable has to fit the infrastructure simulated (which is accurate), rather than the simulation being written around the requirements of a timetable.

" said:

I demonstrated SimSig to one of my friends recently, a guy who's been around model trains and train simulators for years - but not UK signalling. He almost freaked out when he saw how large the Exeter area was and quickly exclaimed "Too hard for me".

Exeter is intended for more experienced SimSig players- try again with Royston/Wembley Sub/Lime Street and see how it goes.

"Don't stress/ relax/ let life roll off your backs./ Except for death and paying taxes/ everything in life.../ is only for now." (Avenue Q)
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 31/01/2012 at 17:29 #28475
Late Turn
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Max,

It's clear that a fair bit of time and effort has gone into this production, so you ought to be congratulated for that! The "back-to-basics" approach will, I'm sure, be invaluable to newcomers like yourself - once you understand something thoroughly, of course, it's sometimes difficult to put yourself in the position of the chap who doesn't understand the basic principles, as I'm sure you'll have appreciated. It seems that the light-hearted approach to some of the material is what's causing a lot of upset - whilst some of the implied criticism appears unnecessary and far from constructive, I think the remainder might actually be quite effective at firstly drawing the reader's attention to something that doesn't operate as you'd expect, and then explaining in simple terms (and from personal experience!) how to properly deal with it. The replies on the forums tend to be, as you might expect, quite technical - great for those of us who have a fair understanding of signalling, but not so helpful for the newcomer!

A few more specific comments from a quick read through then - it's not my intention to air your dirty laundry in public, but rather hope to encourage corrections to my corrections (or at least to avoid duplication):
Quote:
SimSig uses two, three and four-colour aspect signalling
The word 'colour' shouldn't be used here, or in the surrounding text. A four-aspect signal displays four 'aspects' but only has three different colours!
Quote:
Junction signals occur where routes converge (form a junction) or diverge (branch). Where they diverge, the direction in which points are set is indicated by an additional signal to the main signal such as a feather or theatre indicator. Since Royston is simply an NX (eNtry-eXit) panel with no divergence, it contains no junctions. In other sims, junction signals look no different from main signals, but nevertheless should not be confused with shunt signals, since routes may be set through them with no loss of TD.
There might be no physical junctions, but some form of route indication will be given to a Driver approaching, for example, 977 signal, which has two main routes from it (plus various shunt and calling-on routes which will probably have their own route indication - most likely a small alpha-numeric indicator or set of stencils).
Quote:
You will know that you have successfully set a route between two signals when the first (nearer) one turns green. If it does not, you may have to clear some other obstacle first, such as lowering the barriers at a level crossing along that route to bar road traffic, or wait for an earlier train to pass so that the interlocks created by its route are lifted.
Don't forget that approach control (not approach locking!) will, in many cases, maintain a signal at Danger until the interlocking can prove that the approaching train is quite or nearly at a stand - usually to 'protect' a lower-speed diverging route, a shunt or calling-on route, or a reduced overlap at the next signal.
Quote:
Repeater signals are not encountered in the Royston sim but are worth mentioning here since routes cannot be set to them as their purpose is simply to provide advance indication of the next signal ahead, where the driver's view of it may be restricted, e.g., because of track curvature or a bridge abutment.

That sounds more like the description of a banner repeater signal. Repeater (or distant) signals are provided to ensure that the aspect sequence (G-YY-Y-R or just G-Y-R) can be maintained without significantly extending the distance between the first 'cautionary' aspect and the signal at Danger.
Quote:
6R02 enters from Baldock at 07:25. Its TT states that it stops at “Royston S K246 (Reverse)” between 07:35 and 07:38 and terminates at Royston Sherriff's Siding at 07:39.
The word “Reverse” plus the R in 6R02 tells us to expect it to reverse somewhere along the way.[/quote]I'm sure it's been discussed before, but did we ever establish whether it was acceptable (to the Driver) to instead set the route into the loop and expect the train to successfully reverse behind the signal in there as an alternative to 246? In the example illustrated, this would get the move out of the way of the following 1C35 - which can be seen approaching 975 signal as 6R02 commences its faffing, and will be delayed by a few minutes as a result. All part of the challenge, of course, of extracting every ounce of flexibility out of the provided layout!

Hope that's at least slightly helpful to you!

Tom

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 00:57 #28495
maxand
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I will amend the tutorial as I check them out and post the most important ones here as they are changed.

Thanks Peter for correcting me about R meaning Royston and not Reverse. Silly of me not to have realized that.

First: signallers or signalmen? I somehow got the impression from forum posts that the UK term was signalmen, whereas signallers is used in the USA. However, after reading some of the RGS publications, I notice they say signallers. Which is the preferred term?

Late Turn:
Quote:
did we ever establish whether it was acceptable (to the Driver) to instead set the route into the loop and expect the train to successfully reverse behind the signal in there as an alternative to 246?

Tom, thanks for suggesting an intriguing alternative for 6R02. However, I can't see how this can work as you describe it. I can't set a route into the loop from K977 to K253 without getting a "waiting for correct route to be set" message, so I need to abandon the timetable. Signalling 6R02 into the loop causes it to stop at K253, fouling the track behind. It's just too long for the loop. Setting a route from K253 to K981 doesn't get it out of the way for approaching traffic on the Down line.



To make matters worse, although I can set a route for it from K244 to Sherriff's Siding , on reversing into it it runs out of valid track. This is clearly illogical but understandable since the programmer intended the train to be reversed via K246. Another example of a hidden gotcha for a newbie failing to understand what 6R02's TT wants him to do and struggling to make the train go where it's supposed to go, by any means available.

If, as Steamer suggests, somebody wanted to write a historical TT for Royston using freight trains, they would have to be mighty short to fit into the down loop. :)

The catch-22 is that (unlike another sim I've named before) we are not privy to block lengths, not even the length of the Down Loop, so have no idea how much to shorten a train so that it will fit. I'm pretty sure that if a signaller was faced with this situation in his local area he would be able to dig out a chart of block lengths so could reliably park a long train on a loop.

When playing SimSig I am often reminded of Boswell's diary entry quoting Dr Samuel Johnson:
Quote:
I told him I had been that morning at a meeting of the people called Quakers, where I had heard a woman preach. Johnson: "Sir, a woman's preaching is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all

You know and I (now) know how to cope with discouraging situations like this, and that loose ends like this do not reflect on the quality of the rest of the sim or on other sims - but how does the newbie feel? 6R02 is quite likely to be the first goods train he encounters in SimSig, and certainly the first to arrive in Royston, at 7:25. He has a perfectly justified expectation that what worked for him before, will work again here, similar to a customer walking into a shop.

What does he know or care about Route Tables? The only one I've seen provided so far is Royston's, and even that's inaccurate as K986 is left out of the first column, so there's no mention of the second "long route" (which was inaccurately described in the manual - I've corrected it). He shouldn't have to resort to them - that's programmers' stuff.

Royston should be a showpiece for SimSig as recommendations point to it as the place to begin learning. What do we find? The Down Loop is too long for at least one of its freight trains. Sherriff's siding has two entry points, one above the other. The grey exit arrowhead is next to the upper one, yet you never see a train exiting there, since K249'S berth is located on the lower one. The Route Table shows a route between K244 and Sherrif's (sic) siding with points normal, yet, when I try reversing 6R02 into it, it runs out of valid track. I guess this is because there's not enough length allowed beyond the exit point. And it was updated only recently. Little, careless things like this that might only take about half an hour of coding to redress but which make the newbie stop and puzzle, destroying what inclination he might have had to exercise his inventiveness.

As they say, when it rains lemons, make lemonade. Maybe I should turn this to advantage by making an example of it in the tutorial, which would then have more to say about "run out of valid track" (I mentioned it in the Catch Points section) and introduce the newbie to Route Tables, Abandoning Timetables and possibly Adjust Length of train (haven't tried this one before - how does zero sound?).

Suddenly this superficially simple sim is beginning to get very, very complicated.

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:06 by maxand
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 00:59 #28496
mfcooper
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"Moral: There is a big difference between setting a route created by the sim's programmer, and making a train go where you want it to go. Your confidence in doing the latter should have increased immeasurably by now."

What!? You are telling people to do things that the sim isn't programmed for, and it isn't programmed because it doesn't happen in real life. The whole point on SimSig is accuracy to the real world, as much as possible, and under no circumstance I know of can you authorise a train to pass a LOS signal. It seems a large portion of this beginners guide is how to break things and effectively cheat. This is not what a beginners guide should be advising new users to do! Comments like this really annoy me and make me quite angry. It seems that portions of thie article are related to how you didnt understand/try to understand how to use the simulation as it was designed - To represent the Royston area of the Hitchin Panel at Kings Cross signal box - and rather you prefer to make it up as you go along. If it isn't in the sim, that's because it isn't in real life, and you should be telling people to "make a train go where you want it to go". If you have to resort to these measures, then you are doing it wrong. If you tried your method in the real world, you would lose your job in an instant!

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:00 by mfcooper
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:19 #28498
maxand
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Quote:
You are telling people to do things that the sim isn't programmed for, and it isn't programmed because it doesn't happen in real life. The whole point on SimSig is accuracy to the real world, as much as possible, and under no circumstance I know of can you authorise a train to pass a LOS signal.

mfcooper, your comment is excellent. That's exactly what should have been put into the manual for the newbie to read before starting to play it for the first time.

However, if what you said is absolutely true, why didn't Royston's programmer add a bit of code to (a) prevent a train from reversing past the LOS, and (b) popping up a stern message to that effect? The fact that I was actually able to do it makes it SimSig's fault, not mine.

Children who are testing their environment often break things before they learn how to use them, and a newbie is no exception. I make absolutely no apology for showing users how to break things, since I also showed them the correct way first.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:23 #28499
mfcooper
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But the point is you shouldn't show them how to break things, as they may well get confused by what is the correct way with all the options you gave them. A beginner's tutorial should only tell them "how to", and any information like that is either not required or should be elsewhere, clearly labelled as "how not to do it".
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:27 #28500
jc92
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" said:
You are telling people to do things that the sim isn't programmed for, and it isn't programmed because it doesn't happen in real life. The whole point on SimSig is accuracy to the real world, as much as possible, and under no circumstance I know of can you authorise a train to pass a LOS signal.
the only time i can think of, adimittedly under special circumstances and an unusual occurrence, is wrong line working (only ever done it once, and also assumes the pilotman hasnt already been authorised to ignore the LOS board/signal).

as regards the comments about there being two entrances to sherriffs sidings, i would imagine the real panel illustrates it as such as there may be two lines "off panel".

as for SimSig allowing the user to break the rules....i spose thats up to them, i dont see it as a failing. its possible to break the rules in real life and make mistakes, the only difference with SimSig being, theres never a bad ending to the story.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:28 by jc92
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:31 #28501
maxand
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Another thing. The original wording of the manual is:
Quote:
The LOS on the Down line is closer to signal 977 than you might think. Long trains won't fit in there and need to be reversed on the Up.
What's a long train? A long passenger train? How long? Is this what a real-life signaller would expect to read on his area instruction? No. My guess is that he would probably see something like "the working distance between the LOS and 977 is nnn feet".

Quote:
"Moral: There is a big difference between setting a route created by the sim's programmer, and making a train go where you want it to go. Your confidence in doing the latter should have increased immeasurably by now."

What!? You are telling people to do things that the sim isn't programmed for, and it isn't programmed because it doesn't happen in real life.
In that case you should contact the developers and suggest they delete the code for everything in F2 > Signalling Options.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:35 #28502
memorialstingray
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:evil:
OMG!!!

I haven't yet had the time to read through the whole document, but what I have read now wants to make me...... the one passage I have just read has just cost me my train driving license, I will be more specifc later after I have had oxygen and been med-screened, then plucked the courage to read the rest

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:35 by memorialstingray
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:39 #28503
jc92
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" said:

In that case you should contact the developers and suggest they delete the code for everything in F2 > Signalling Options.
last time i looked Mfcooper was a developer....for lime street?

i do think you have a good point though max...it would be nice to see more detail regarding loop and platform lengths in manuals, im SLUs or metres.

"We don't stop camborne wednesdays"
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:39 #28504
maxand
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mfcooper:
Quote:
But the point is you shouldn't show them how to break things, as they may well get confused by what is the correct way with all the options you gave them. A beginner's tutorial should only tell them "how to", and any information like that is either not required or should be elsewhere, clearly labelled as "how not to do it".

Before I created this tutorial, there was plenty in the Wiki on "how to do it", much less on "why is it done this way?", "how not to do it", and particularly "why not do it this way?" I think I made the preferred way clear enough in all my examples but will nevertheless recheck to make sure they are not ambiguous. Newbies should not be confused by any of my options if the reasons for exercising or not exercising them are explained clearly enough.

The best kind of tutorial IMO is one which also answers unasked questions.

@memorialstingray, It saddens me greatly to learn that you lost your train driving licence on account of something that appeared in an ex officio game manual written for a different occupation. I hope you are able to find alternative employment, possibly as a signaller.

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:48 by maxand
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 01:50 #28505
memorialstingray
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Until I have had the time to read through your entire document I will decline from further comment but I will and will repost soon, this is being said not only as a developer but as a driver
Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 01:51 by memorialstingray
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 02:01 #28506
postal
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All seems very simple to me. Those who want to use SimSig as the next best thing to reality can take advice from people like a signaller in one of the busiest boxes on the UK network. Those who want to take SimSig as a game and do not want to try and follow the rule book can follow the work rounds in the tutorial.

If we can all understand that, we don't need to start falling out with each other.

“In life, there is always someone out there, who won’t like you, for whatever reason, don’t let the insecurities in their lives affect yours.” – Rashida Rowe
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 02:08 #28507
maxand
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On the subject of what can be done and what should not be done, the overwhelming impression I got from SimSig's forum and Wiki when I sat down to write this tutorial was that the only thing that matters to the software is that a train passes its waypoints (is there a railway-specific term for this?) assigned to it in its TT, in the correct order. How[/i] it gets to these waypoints is up to the signaller. Therefore the newbie should not feel he is doing anything wrong by signalling the driver to carry out manoeuvres even as unorthodox as reverse shunting past a LOS. It might not be the [i]recommended way, but it gets him home and boosts his confidence!

SimSig is proud of its claim to be as authentic as possible, yet still permits things like this to happen. You can't have it both ways, so let's not deprive newbie users of extra workarounds - they need them more than we do!!

Once they try all these methods and finally hit on the way they were supposed to do it (the programmer's vision), they will usually use it from then on as it is usually simplest and quickest. But how much they learned in the process! This makes SimSig a true learning simulator, not one where the user applies cut-and-dried set routes mindlessly.

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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 02:22 #28508
maxand
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postal:
Quote:
All seems very simple to me. Those who want to use SimSig as the next best thing to reality can take advice from people like a signaller in one of the busiest boxes on the UK network. Those who want to take SimSig as a game and do not want to try and follow the rule book can follow the work rounds in the tutorial.

To which person are you referring?

It seems to me that my tutorial is now becoming popular not for the serious information it contains but for its workarounds. I don't think you are justified in equating "those who take SimSig as a game" with "those who do not want to try and follow the rule book". This is appealing to emotions. Games need rules. SimSig looks like a game, even quacks like a game (e.g., Save Game) but still has and needs rules. I view SimSig as a very realistic simulator bounded by the limitations of a software game - you seem unable to see it this way.

I always thought simulators were created to produce a learning environment. SimSig does this much better than I imagined at first.

May I request that from now on, those posting further in this thread confine their posts to specific aspects of the tutorial that they would like to see amended or expanded.

Last edited: 01/02/2012 at 02:25 by maxand
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Re: New SimSig beginners' tutorial using Royston 01/02/2012 at 02:25 #28509
dmaze
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I definitely like the concept of a beginner's overview; like the other commenters here I think it could be even better if it focused on the right way to do things rather than the specific path you explored the game.

Some more specific commentary:


  • I don't really understand why the signal map is so useful. It's the very first thing you call out, but I don't see many references to it or to specific signals beyond illustrations in diagrams. (Mostly the only time I've looked at them is to get a feel for how big/complex a new sim is.)

  • I probably wouldn't proscribe a specific set of display options nearly to the extent that you do. My one specific change would be to turn "Show track circuit breaks" on; this helps explain "why hasn't this signal cleared yet?"

  • A beginner's tutorial really shouldn't describe things as "weird", "contrary to expectations", "cause great frustration to the newcomer", etc.

  • I'd tend to focus on the specifics of the Royston sim, and maybe put a page at the end on some things that are different in other sims -- four-aspect signals, repeaters, different display options, and so on. For that matter, you don't usually need to touch the "A" or "E" buttons, the "long route" concept seems to be an exception I never knew about, you don't typically need to cancel routes, ..., and I might move discussion of these things to the second-to-last page. Cancelling routes and the related full-page discussion on approach locking and ACOA is definitely less important than the following page of examples.

  • In the discussion of 5R96 becoming 2R96, throw away the Train List. But do note, as 5R96 is arriving, that its WTT has the N:2R96 notation, and explain how to interpose the new TD. Don't even mention the possibility of the "reverse direction" instruction since it is so counter-productive here. Similarly, when you talk about calling-on routes, describe the right way to do it first before going into details of Huddersfield control.

  • One thing that might be useful is a translation guide for foreigners like me. I figured out the extra "u" in "color" and that "switches" are "points" pretty quickly, but it took a while to figure out that "up" is "towards London", and I hadn't realized until I saw it written down here that a British "siding", unlike an American one, doesn't allow trains out the far end.

  • When 6R02 reverses at "Royston S" that's South of the station, which lets you cast an educated guess at its location. And you do eventually get to that, but it seems an easier way to find things than digging through the signal map. 6T41 presumably (like the 1Txx passenger trains) heads via Cambridge and Ely towards King's Lynn; again, its example should show the right solution and mention that routing via the loop won't work, rather than only focusing on the wrong answer. (It's mildly irrelevant here, but I only recently realized that all of the 1V/1E/1M trains on Exeter/Bristol/Gloucester/Saltley were the same trains, which is kinda nifty.) 6E55 could (length and routes permitting) reverse at either signal 977 or 245 (though here a mention that the sim will only allow one choice makes sense). 6M82's discussion should probably start with bringing up its WTT.

  • For blocking off LCs when needed, I tend to collar only the signal after the LC, since it prevents you from setting routes either to or from it.

  • I agree with everyone else: don't document the "brute force" options, you should only usually need them during failures. Speaking of which, some examples of things that potentially go wrong (and when you do legitimately need to "tell driver to examine line and pass signal at danger"would be a helpful advanced topic.

  • Recommending some "next" sims in the conclusion could be nice. Liverpool Lime Street might fit the bill; Euston is small and usually only has one or two things to deal with at a time, but it has a lot of special cases; Cambridge (with the "modern" timetable) might be a good "next next" sim that's larger but not too busy, or Peterborough with most of the ARS switched on, or even SwinDid. Some specific examples from these sims (from Cambridge, the single-track lines and the Ely interlocked LC, for instance) could also help fill out the SimSig "vocabulary".


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The following users said thank you: maxand, GeoffM