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Hove yard won't accept train

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Hove yard won't accept train 24/03/2014 at 13:38 #57661
maxand
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Playing the default TT, 5H36 arrives late at Preston Park P3 at 10:15 AM for Hove Yard (due 9:50). Yardmaster won't accept it, says call back later. How long will I have to wait and what do I do with this blasted train in the meantime? It's blocked everything else on the Down Main trying to get into Brighton station.
Last edited: 24/03/2014 at 13:40 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 24/03/2014 at 14:05 #57666
Josie
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'Call back later' means there's a conflicting movement - either the yard has already accepted another train and is waiting for that one first, or if it's a single track in and out (I don't have Brighton handy at the moment and can't remember) perhaps there's a train waiting to leave.
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Hove yard won't accept train 24/03/2014 at 14:08 #57667
northroad
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Max,
Why not send it down the Cliftonville spur (further towards Hove Yard) to sig 675 and try phoning from there. That way you have not left it in Preston Park and blocked the main line.

Geoff

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
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Hove yard won't accept train 24/03/2014 at 14:08 #57668
robert
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Platforms 1 & 2 are reversible, why not use them?
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 00:52 #57706
maxand
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Thanks for all your useful suggestions.

I omitted to mention earlier that I had tried phoning Hove Yard several times over a period of 20 minutes to request permission but was knocked back each time. Also the TT showed no trains wanting to enter from Hove Yard at about that time.

I tried northroad's suggestion of sending it down the Cliftonville spur, but it was only refused again, and this time it blocked the spur for any future trains who wanted to use it to go to Shoreham. Finally I decided to set an exit route from Hove yard to see what crawled out. No train, but got a message to say I'd set the wrong route for a class 5 (ECS) train. Back to the TT and here's an ECS that should have departed Hove yard at about 6 AM - I probably overlooked it. Put its headcode in a sticky to see what its correct route should have been. Set the route and it crawled out, only 4 hours late, like from under a stone. Requested permission for my train into Hove Yard and instantly accepted. So that's the solution, if you can call it one.

This doesn't do much to improve my opinion of this sim. Hove yard really sucks. In real life I'm sure that if I'd phoned the yard the yardmaster would have told me he's trying to get a train out and would have even told me its headcode. In fact, way back when it should have entered, I should have got several repeat messages from the yard pleading for me to allow it to enter. There would have been some human communication that would have cleared the matter up.

Alternative methods of stashing the ECS include leaving it at signal 425 (Preston Park P3) and diverting Down trains along the Up main via signal 427 - at least that doesn't block Cliftonville spur. Furthermore, being ECS, it could be held on any goods siding, e.g the unnamed but presumably Brighton GOODS REC(eiving) line.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 00:59 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 01:15 #57707
Danny252
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" said:
This doesn't do much to improve my opinion of this sim. Hove yard really sucks. In real life I'm sure that if I'd phoned the yard the yardmaster would have told me he's trying to get a train out and would have even told me its headcode. In fact, way back when it should have entered, I should have got several repeat messages from the yard pleading for me to allow it to enter.
You ignored the phone calls every 2/5/15 minutes from the waiting driver, so I can't see any fault with the sim - so I'd say that Hove Yard isn't the part of the process that "really sucks" here.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 01:17 by Danny252
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 02:37 #57708
maxand
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What's it got to do with the driver? I hadn't accepted the train from the shunter so the driver wouldn't have phoned in, or else I would have noticed. BTW, I would have exited and restarted SimSig several times in the intervening 4 hours, recommencing with automatically saved sessions, so it's quite possible SimSig might have lost this ECS somewhere between them. I've read this can happen.

(Added) I do use the Train List when needed, and again would have noticed this train waiting at a signal with Hove yard mentioned in the Status or Location columns, but it wasn't.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 03:20 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 06:29 #57711
Late Turn
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The problem, if there is one, would then appear to be the failure of the shunter to call back at regular intervals, if indeed you had refused the outgoing train. I can't remember the detail of the options that you're presented with when offered a train out of sidings - is it "OK"/"wait 2m"/"wait 5m"/"wait 15m"? Perhaps an option to request the shunter to call back when an arriving train is inside and clear, and/or the ability to call the shunter back when you're ready, would be quite realistic and useful?
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 08:14 #57715
maxand
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I fully agree. A phone call from the shunter would stand out clearly from all the other calls from delayed drivers.
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 09:23 #57721
y10g9
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Does hove yard request permission for a train to enter, or does it just inform that a train is entering? In the latter one, the train appears at the same time as the phonecall so hes sat waiting for you to route.
Max, have you got the phonecalls linked to a sound still or did you remove it? Theres really only one person at fault and that yourself as the signaler for not answering the phonecall from the ECS unit. The sim works as its designed to

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 10:40 #57730
maxand
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Replying to y10g9:

Quote:
Does hove yard request permission for a train to enter, or does it just inform that a train is entering? In the latter one, the train appears at the same time as the phonecall so hes sat waiting for you to route.
Well, neither actually. I get a phone call from the shunter saying that a train is "ready". My only reply option is "OK", without any "Ring back in x minutes". The train doesn't appear until I set a route for it. On my screen at any rate, whatever timetable or other details the shunter may have provided is cut off by the window, so unless I remember to create a sticky with the train's headcode so I can click it in order to see where it's supposed to go, once I click OK all the details are gone and there's no sign of the train either.

At another point in the sim I accepted a train from Hove Yard and stupidly set the wrong route for it because I hadn't thought of creating a sticky then. Because the preceding 5 trains out of Hove Yard had all gone to Preston Park Platform 1, that's where I sent this one. However, it was bound for Brighton. When I realized this I tried reversing it. Before I could stop it, it disappeared back into Hove Yard like a rat up a drainpipe and no amount of coaxing could persuade it to show its ugly little head, so I had no option but to revert to an earlier saved game. How I wished I was back in my safe little box in Westbury.

Like I said, Hove Yard sucks. It's Brighton's own black hole. Advice to newbies: don't get your train too close to its event horizon.


Quote:
Max, have you got the phonecalls linked to a sound still or did you remove it?

Well, phone calls are not linked to any sound file by default AFAIK but I did affix a phone sound to it at one stage. Not only did it drive me mad with ten drivers constantly ringing in, I became distracted and confused by the way the phone continued to sound even after I replaced it on the hook, as I posted here. Now I just use the A key and take one at a time, silently. The other guys working at Brighton have thanked me for doing it this way.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 10:50 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 11:19 #57733
John
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This is not about Hove Yard sucking, or a problem with the sim. And as nobody else (including these mythical newbies you keep alluding to) has complained about Hove Yards method of working, I can only deduce that it's more about your own shortcomings.

It's quite simple.

1. Hove Yard shunter phones to inform you that a train is ready to depart Hove Yard.
2. You click "Ok" to accept the train and the train proceeds to the exit signal 676.
3. At this point you should interpose its headcode, create a sticky, or look at its timetable in the F4 menu. I always have the F4 menu open so that I can anticipate when a train is about appear from a siding or fringe. It takes seconds.
4. You set the route for the train, or:
5. If you choose to hold the train in the yard for whatever reason, the driver will call at regular intervals to remind you of his presence.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 11:54 #57738
maxand
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John said:
Quote:
It's quite simple.

1. Hove Yard shunter phones to inform you that a train is ready to depart Hove Yard.
2. You click "Ok" to accept the train and the train proceeds to the exit signal 676.
3. At this point you should interpose its headcode, create a sticky, or look at its timetable in the F4 menu. I always have the F4 menu open so that I can anticipate when a train is about appear from a siding or fringe. It takes seconds.
4. You set the route for the train, or:
5. If you choose to hold the train in the yard for whatever reason, the driver will call at regular intervals to remind you of his presence.
Thanks for that clear and concise summary. I just wish that had been in the sim manual before I started playing it. In fact, I'll try to find time to add it unless someone else does it for me. The manual describes how to get trains into Hove Yard, but says nothing about getting them out. (I find TC overrides too confusing as described so have avoided them for now.)

It's probably a bit unfair of you and others to blame this on my shortcomings if the manual fails to mention it, especially if previous sims I've played have TDs appearing magically, which avoids the need for timetables, sticky notes and all the other tomfoolery we've discussed here.

So, why doesn't Hove Yard behave like other respectable sidings? Is it so poor it can't afford its own TD? And more importantly, why must its shunter give me no option to defer entry of a train? Surely siding entry behaviour should be standardized between sims.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:08 #57739
mfcooper
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" said:
So, why doesn't Hove Yard behave like other respectable sidings? Is it so poor it can't afford its own TD?

Pretty much. I am guessing, but I assume there wasn't the money to install a TD when Three Bridges ASC was opened/Hove Yard was connected to the ASC.


" said:
And more importantly, why must its shunter give me no option to defer entry of a train?

Many times because they are full and need to get a train out before one can come in. And if the exiting train is already at the departing signal, there would be significant time required to get the driver to change ends and get the shunter out of their cabin to set a safe route back into the yard. There may be other trains queuing up behind, all of which would need to change ends and go back. It can all get a bit messy. That's why there is a phone link between the yard and the signal box.


" said:
Surely siding entry behaviour should be standardized between sims.

But they are not standardised across the UK rail network. Remember, SimSig tries simulates real life, not an alteration of it.

Previously, you also said:

" said:
Back to the TT and here's an ECS that should have departed Hove yard at about 6 AM - I probably overlooked it. Put its headcode in a sticky to see what its correct route should have been. Set the route and it crawled out, only 4 hours late, like from under a stone.

Did you miss 4 hours of the driver phoning in telling you they were waiting at the departure signal? That is the major factor here. Not the lack of info in the manual, not the lack of a TD. If you ignore the phone then you bring problems upon yourself.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 12:10 by mfcooper
Reason: clarification & typos

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:17 #57741
maxand
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Well, now I know.

As I said in an earlier post, I do check trains whose drivers phone in, even if there's a backlog, so I think I would have noticed this ECS unless SimSig lost it somewhere between sessions. Never mind; the solution is clear.

As an aside to John, I appreciate your suggestion of keeping the F4 Timetable window handy, but don't really have the time to refer to it, so prefer to create my own sticky note next to Hove Yard, containing the entering train's headcode so that when I click it, its TT appears in the Show Timetable window.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:27 #57742
Late Turn
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That's what puzzles me - Max's earlier posts suggest that the driver didn't phone in at all during those four hours. Was this actually the case, or was the call just ignored?

It would often be useful to have the option to 'defer' entry in these cases though (some Simsig sidings do, don't they?), for occasions when it'd be better to get an arriving train away first - the shunter surely ought to be sensible enough to keep the outgoing train back clear until he's established that the signalman can deal with it?

I'm sure that the vast majority of sidings have no facility for the shunter to interpose the headcode of departing trains (so the signalman doesn't have to, if that's what you meant, Max), and plenty with no TD berth at all. Referring back to my train describer photos in another recent thread - we have no train describer at all on the other panel (Absolute Block both ways, but with very long station limits, a junction onto a TCB line and a reasonably busy siding - we can easily have four or five trains on or approaching the panel at once) so it's all about the train register and a notepad!

Tom

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:37 #57743
John
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How about trying something like this, Max? Before you start a game, go into F4 > Entry Location and make stickies for all yard/siding departures.


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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:40 #57744
headshot119
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Maybe I should take all the TD berths out on North Wales Coast (None of the boxes have TDs at all), then we could have something to really complain about
"As the last track dropped, and the route became free, came the cry BROMLEY " - Opinions are my own and not those of my employer
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:43 #57745
John
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" said:
That's what puzzles me - Max's earlier posts suggest that the driver didn't phone in at all during those four hours. Was this actually the case, or was the call just ignored?
If you just ignore the shunters call by just closing the dialogue box without clicking "Ok", the phone will keep ringing until you accept the train. So Max must have accepted it, in which case he must have ignored the drivers phone calls for 4 hours!

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 12:51 #57747
dmaze
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" said:
Replying to y10g9:I get a phone call from the shunter saying that a train is "ready". My only reply option is "OK", without any "Ring back in x minutes". The train doesn't appear until I set a route for it.
When you get the phone call saying the train is ready to enter, it should have the first couple of lines of the timetable in the dialog box. This is usually enough for me to set the initial route out of the yard and figure out where to interpose the TD. I only use a sticky if the entry point doesn't have its own berth (this is far from the only place in the SimSigVerse like that!) and the obvious exit route is blocked by something.

And as others have noted, the train does appear, you should be able to see it in places like the F2 listing and it does occupy track, it's just not in a place that has either a track circuit or a TD berth.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:06 #57750
maxand
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The ECS train was due to enter from Hove Yard at about 6 AM, and I struck this problem at about 10 AM. At 6 AM this was my first attempt at Brighton, so it's quite possible that I clicked OK and then forgot about the train. It didn't take long for traffic to build up, so it's also quite possible I overlooked that particular train driver among the other 20 or so, OK?

John, I like your suggestion of taking the time to create stickies of the entry times of trains from sidings as you did in post #17. The only problem is that unless one is careful to create them in the earliest saved game and then never to accidentally overwrite them when starting a new game, the stickies are gone for good next time you play. To avoid this heartbreak, may I suggest (you probably do this too) creating the information in a saved .txt file, then creating the sticky and pasting it in?

Another idea I'm trying now is putting a red sticky with "676" next to the signal of that number, which is the exit signal from Hove Yard, to remind me that if I get a phone call from a driver waiting at that signal, he must be waiting to enter. (Strange - there isn't a signal numbered 666 on the map, but I can think of a good location for it...)

headshot119 said:
Quote:
Maybe I should take all the TD berths out on North Wales Coast (None of the boxes have TDs at all), then we could have something to really complain about


Look, chum, I don't give a toss what you do as long as you spell out in the manual how to handle this, as eloquently as John did above. If you make things really clear, you won't get complaints. So go ahead and take them out in the interests of authenticity.

Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 13:14 by maxand
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:11 #57751
LucasLCC
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" said:
John, I like your suggestion of taking the time to create stickies of the entry times of trains from sidings as you did in post #17. The only problem is that unless one is careful to create them in the earliest saved game and then never to accidentally overwrite them when starting a new game, the stickies are gone for good next time you play. To avoid this heartbreak, may I suggest (you probably do this too) creating the information in a saved .txt file, then creating the sticky and pasting it in?
For busier locations, a simplifier can be pretty handy.

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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:22 #57752
maxand
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I tried the Simplifier but can't get it to work for me, possibly because Hove Yard has no platforms. I've noticed that it works well for any station with platforms, but this is all I get:
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:22 #57753
northroad
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Like the idea of the yellow stickies for Hove sidings...in fact when I add it along with all the yellow stickies that I have for each service at Brighton platforms with their departure times and those at Preston Park I have very little space to see anything else. Seeing as I also have F2 open to see where everything is for each work station. I have now lost all capability of seeing any track or signals. Can I say my 15 inch screen on my lap top just cannot deal with all of this clutter and is probably one of the reasons that I have yet to purchase Birmingham New Street with all it's scrolling up and down, side to side, with all the suggested, pink, green coloured stickies. I think any resemblance to the original Sim Sig that I liked and loved has now gone out of the window. But there again the simulations with all these ideas of F keys, Z keys, shift locks, caps locks,short cuts that need to be read in the manuals will not give me anytime to actually play the game...sorry simulation.........where do we go from here.....who knows....stay tuned to find out as I am only onto page 199 out of 340

Geoff

Never apologise son, it's a sign of weakness (John Wayne)
Last edited: 25/03/2014 at 13:33 by northroad
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Hove yard won't accept train 25/03/2014 at 13:48 #57755
maxand
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Well, why not put all this info into a text file or even a png file and have it hiding behind SimSig so you can make it the front window (i.e., on top) simply by clicking its icon on the Windows toolbar?
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