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| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 07/06/2014 at 20:56 #61432 | |
Gonzo75
17 posts |
A real bug bear of mine is seeing people replace signals to danger in front of an approaching train so they can set a new route, for example to route around a problem. This does not simulate reality. Signallers are not allowed to put signals back that will mean the Driver will see a change of aspect unless it is an emergency. In a 2 hour session this has now happened SEVEN times! Rant over B) Log in to reply The following users said thank you: Firefly, tjtbcork, guidomcc, flabberdacks |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 07/06/2014 at 22:05 #61434 | |
GW43125
495 posts |
Simsig needs a 'like post' button. DSW Log in to reply The following user said thank you: tjtbcork |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 07/06/2014 at 22:28 #61435 | |
kaiwhara
584 posts |
As a driver, when I have a light pulled in my face, and the Signaller does not have a damn good reason for it. Watch out! Many a Signaller and Train Controller has felt my wrath (particularly as I trained some of them so they do know better)... :angry: Sorry guys, I am in the business of making people wait! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: tjtbcork |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 07/06/2014 at 23:38 #61436 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
I've always thought that perhaps 'safety-critical' incidents should be scored separately in SimSig. This would count instances of replacing signals in front of a train, talking a train past danger into some points set against, having a train pass a level crossing with the barriers raised/where you have authorised a user to cross over the phone, and probably a few other things if they can be easily recognised. Obviously in almost all cases you'd want these to be zero, though there might be some simulation bugs that would cause one of these (particularly interlocking bugs returning signals to danger when they shouldn't, or bugs with handling of AHBs causing a train to pass with barriers up, which I've encountered before). I just think that, as well as counting these other incidents that currently don't get counted at all, it's a bit ludicrous to give something that is really quite a lot worse than delaying a train the same scoring category as delaying a train. Makes it seem more acceptable than it is. (I'm not a signaller, someone correct me if I'm being a bit over-the-top with this - I suppose in many cases due to approach locking it might well not be safety critical, but still pretty terrifying for drivers...) (Though I'd certainly expect the "request adverse change of aspect" feature to be implemented if this is  - ie requesting a train to accept an adverse change of aspect when stopped at a station)
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| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 09:28 #61442 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
Gonzo75's original post refers to a multisession game where (as I understand it) each player is responsible for one panel. Two hours must just about be the limit for any player who needs to plan ahead and remain 100% alert, just as in real life. My advice would be, don't even think about playing SimSig when you're tired, unless it's a very quiet timetable. At least when playing solo one can hit Pause - maybe this isn't possible in a multiplayer session, thus placing extra stress on those who are more used to pausing at times of difficulty. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 09:37 #61443 | |
jc92
3631 posts |
" said:Two hours must just about be the limit for any player who needs to plan ahead and remain 100% alert, just as in real life.for air traffic controllers maybe. theres plenty of panels that are manned for 8 or 12 hour shifts without relief, for instance, worksop and retford Thrumpton. "We don't stop camborne wednesdays" Last edited: 08/06/2014 at 09:37 by jc92 Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 11:09 #61448 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts 
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Generally VDU workstations weren't allowed to be operated for more than two hours if deemed suitably busy that the Signalman were likely to need a screen break. Not sure if this rule still applies. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 13:58 #61455 | |
belly buster
368 posts |
I agree with Gonzo, there shouldn't be any reason in Simsig to subject a train to an ACOA. If there is a delayed train then a signal can be replaced with agreement with the driver. If you set an incorrect route, the driver will kindly inform you of such on arrival at the offending signal, which can then be replaced by agreement. b Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 15:05 #61459 | |
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sloppyjag
480 posts |
" said:...assuming the sim has been coded for drivers to challenge an incorrect route, some haven't - Edinburgh and Motherwell come to mind. It's a while since I joined a multiplayer session (I should really give it a go again sometime) but I suspect ACOA's are as much to do with players not reading timetables correctly (e.g. setting routes other than timetabled or not allowing for dwell times and setting routes too early) rather than delays or other incidents. Planotransitophobic! Last edited: 08/06/2014 at 15:06 by sloppyjag Log in to reply The following user said thank you: postal |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 16:24 #61462 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
A stupid mistake like misclicking at a busy terminus station (eg the signal for the platform above or below the one you intended) can cause horrible consequences in these cases, putting large parts of the station out of use for however long it takes for the train you accidentally set a route for to depart. This is the sort of circumstance (and the only circumstance, in fact, as far as I recall) where I'd intentionally ACOA in SimSig (but in real life, you'd presumably phone the driver, possibly via station staff, to agree to the ACOA first).
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| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 08/06/2014 at 17:23 #61464 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts
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Pulling signals in the Drivers face should generally be avoided unless he has been personally be consulted by the Signalman first. Any signalman doing that in real life in a non-emergency situation could likely get himself hauled out of the box in this day and age for D&A testing, so it is not the thing to do. I have also seen at least one case of a Driver being "shook up" and demanding relief on the spot, so it can cause significant disruption as well. For starters, it will make no difference to the approach locking timers - the signal will time out anyway so the delay prevented in the case of a wrong route being set will be no different, as the driver in Simsig will dawdle about on the phone for ages phoning his control. I agree that there is a slight issue where sims are not coded for wrong-routes, and in these cases there may be no option but to cancel the route with a train approaching or else the trains will just go the wrong way anyway. Perhaps a standard should be set whereby all sims are coded for suitable combinations of wrong-routes, but that is one for the developers to debate, and I believe such a debate has been known to happen with inconclusive results. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 07:11 #61472 | |
onlydjw
456 posts |
* D&A Testing - Drugs and Alcohol testing
God bless, Daniel Wilson Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 13:38 #61478 | |
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maxand
1637 posts |
belly buster wrote in post #8: Quote: If there is a delayed train then a signal can be replaced with agreement with the driver. I.e., if a train unexpectedly becomes delayed for some reason, SimSig will give a reason for the delay, an expected time of departure and ask you whether you wish to replace the signal ahead of it (to red), giving you a chance to route other trains around it if possible. Who would originate this communication in real life, the platform staff (if stopped at a station) or the driver? (Unimportant as far as SimSig is concerned.) Useful as this feature is, it does not help the signaller wanting to replace a signal ahead of a train when there is no delay. Quote: If you set an incorrect route, the driver will kindly inform you of such on arrival at the offending signal, which can then be replaced by agreement. This is certainly one way of avoiding an ACOA, though it is not always possible nor advisable to set a wrong route at the next signal simply to avoid an ACOA. Josie provided another workaround here; again, a bit of a cheat but useful to know! The ability to advise a driver ahead of time that a signal will be replaced (in order to avoid an ACOA) has been discussed here and probably elsewhere. Although I concede that it might be risky distracting the driver by calling him while his train is moving, I can see no reason why this would be a problem if the train is already stationary at a platform (e.g., waiting for a TRTS). A possible feature request? Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 14:12 #61479 | |
lazzer
605 posts |
" said:if a train unexpectedly becomes delayed for some reason ... Who would originate this communication in real life, the platform staff (if stopped at a station) or the driver?If this sort of thing happens at a station where platform staff despatch the train, then they will either know of the problem if it is passenger-related, or will be told by the driver if they have encountered a technical problem. The platform staff will then say to me, "Do you want to call the signaller and get the road put back?". When Reading Panel still existed, the staff would call the panel on their radio with me standing next to them and ask for the road to be put back, saying "I'm with the driver, and he says it's OK to put the road back". If it were me calling the signaller to ask to have the road put back, they would specifically ask me if I was OK with it, before putting it back. They key here is that the driver MUST be OK with having the signal put back to danger in front of them, despite the train being stationary. But in answer to your question, the driver would not call the signaller and and ask for the road to be put back UNLESS you were at an unstaffed station, and the continued delay would affect other services. This happened to me at Dawlish Warren once. I stopped in the up platform loop, and my signal back onto the main line was off. I looked back, as I always do at every station, and saw the guard messing about trying to find a wheelchair ramp for someone who wanted to get on (he couldn't even find one), and I knew there were trains behind me that couldn't pass on the through road. So I gave the signaller a call and told him what was going on, and told him that if he wanted to put the road back to allow trains past me, it was OK with me. He still confirmed that I was OK with that happening, despite me telling him first that I was. But at a staffed station, it's always the platform staff who have to approach me to tell me to call the signaller about having the road put back. Last edited: 09/06/2014 at 14:13 by lazzer Log in to reply The following users said thank you: postal, maxand |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 15:06 #61481 | |
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mfcooper
707 posts |
For me at work it is most commonly the drivers contacting us to have signals replaced. Only if station staff (at Victoria) confirm there is no driver in the cab do we ever take their word that it is okay to return the signal to danger. If there *is* a driver in the cab and we haven't spoken to the driver directly, the signal stays at proceed.
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| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 15:33 #61483 | |
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lazzer
605 posts |
Having just re-read what I wrote about the driver being OK with the road going back on him, I was reminded about the time that a signal went from green to red, back to green, and then back to red on me, at 125mph. Let me tell you, my heart rate was a little higher on that occasion than it was when I was standing on Reading platform ...
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| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 17:27 #61487 | |
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Hooverman
306 posts |
" said:For me at work it is most commonly the drivers contacting us to have signals replaced. Only if station staff (at Victoria) confirm there is no driver in the cab do we ever take their word that it is okay to return the signal to danger. If there *is* a driver in the cab and we haven't spoken to the driver directly, the signal stays at proceed.For us working next door to you. Our general rule of the thumb is never ever trust platform staff and after disruption and a new TRTS is given never clear the signal until you've spoken to the driver again to confirm they are ok to go. The amount of times we have had assurance from the platform staff via their control point that there is no driver in the cab after we have cleared a signal after receiving a TRTS where we have put back the signal followed by the missing driver calling on the radio complaining of a replaced signal is too many to count. These days I want to know that the platform staff are actually looking into the empty cab before I will replace the signal. How a train can be ready to start without a driver in the front is beyond me, but that never stops them pressing TRTS. The other great one is the belief that the TRTS button is directly connected to the signal instead of a white light on our panel! Log in to reply The following user said thank you: maxand |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 17:38 #61488 | |
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RainbowNines
272 posts |
A member of my family drives for DB. I remember a very scary story where he was pacing a 66 on the front of a steel train at about 40mph, under green signals, on a clear night. In the Leicester area, he approached a junction onto a busy line which required the train to round the curve. He could see on the rails the red of the stop light and dropped the anchors pretty sharpish. He stopped well short but obviously got on the blower to the signaller who refused point blank the signal was ever anything other than red, but couldn't answer when asked why the previous signal was showing green. Regardless of what occurred and who was at fault, he said he had never felt so terrified in his life. Last edited: 09/06/2014 at 17:38 by RainbowNines Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 17:39 #61489 | |
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Danny252
1461 posts |
" said:Having just re-read what I wrote about the driver being OK with the road going back on him, I was reminded about the time that a signal went from green to red, back to green, and then back to red on me, at 125mph. Let me tell you, my heart rate was a little higher on that occasion than it was when I was standing on Reading platform ...Did you ever get an explanation for that was all about? Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 18:11 #61490 | |
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Stephen Fulcher
2028 posts
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The number of possible causes of signals behaving as described is very long indeed. At least by stepping back up to green a driver should know that the route is at least set safely for him, unlike if a signal reverts and stays at red. I am not sure if Drivers are routinely told the causes of changes of aspect when they are fixed (or even if they are even interested), but it should easily be obtainable through the relevant control rooms. As for TRTS, I remember being stuck at Snow Hill for what seemed an age one day because the platform staff had hit the TRTS for a train two minutes before its departure, and then everyone sitting there because London Midland Control subsequently had to locate first the driver and then the guard, neither of whom were on the train at the time, but the Signalman didn't want to take the risk of putting back the signal because he didn't know the driver wasn't there. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 18:36 #61491 | |
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lazzer
605 posts |
" said:" said:Yes, it was a track circuit failure on the section of plain line ahead of the signal. I still went past the red at 80 ...Having just re-read what I wrote about the driver being OK with the road going back on him, I was reminded about the time that a signal went from green to red, back to green, and then back to red on me, at 125mph. Let me tell you, my heart rate was a little higher on that occasion than it was when I was standing on Reading platform ...Did you ever get an explanation for that was all about? Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 18:39 #61492 | |
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Muzer
718 posts |
" said:Having just re-read what I wrote about the driver being OK with the road going back on him, I was reminded about the time that a signal went from green to red, back to green, and then back to red on me, at 125mph. Let me tell you, my heart rate was a little higher on that occasion than it was when I was standing on Reading platform ...Out of interest, what was that caused by? Intermittent track circuit problem or something? Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 20:47 #61502 | |
KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:The other great one is the belief that the TRTS button is directly connected to the signal instead of a white light on our panel!There is a widespread belief that Signal Post Telephones are directly connected to the signals as well. Use of the SPT at a red signal immediately causes it to clear. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 20:55 #61503 | |
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KymriskaDraken
963 posts |
" said:Only 80? I once had to throw the boards back in front of an HST doing 120 in Chipping Sodbury Tunnel. It took him a while to stop and the driver was a bit shaken when he came on the phone. Log in to reply |
| Replacing signals when a train is approaching 09/06/2014 at 21:19 #61504 | |
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GW43125
495 posts |
" said:" said:Still sounds pretty nasty!Only 80? I once had to throw the boards back in front of an HST doing 120 in Chipping Sodbury Tunnel. It took him a while to stop and the driver was a bit shaken when he came on the phone. Log in to reply |